Kava Science Lebot explains simple qualitative type test in lab
- Thread starter Andrew Procyk
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infraredz
BULA!
Hmmm, similar color to the Koniak (which is not tudei apparently). Anyways, I e-mailed Dr Lebot stating my procedure and attached the 1st photo (with all 3 samples) and asked: 1. Is the color of the Koniak consistent with tudei kava and 2. What is the reason for the particulate that hasn't settled yet. Here's his response (there's also really cool information regarding Solomon's Island):
"Centrifugation will improve the colors, but your acetonic extract of Borogoru is of the right light yellow color, typical of this variety and this is how it is here. Also, the so called "koniak" variety cultivated around Madang, is in fact called "isa" in local vernacular language and is indeed a two-days kava, with a typical ambre color just like your acetonic extract. Also, the only P. methysticum cultivated in the Solomons, is as far as I know, Borogu (syn Borogoru) originating from Pentecost Island, Vanuatu.
We use centrifugation and we compare colors of the supernatant.
Regards"
"Centrifugation will improve the colors, but your acetonic extract of Borogoru is of the right light yellow color, typical of this variety and this is how it is here. Also, the so called "koniak" variety cultivated around Madang, is in fact called "isa" in local vernacular language and is indeed a two-days kava, with a typical ambre color just like your acetonic extract. Also, the only P. methysticum cultivated in the Solomons, is as far as I know, Borogu (syn Borogoru) originating from Pentecost Island, Vanuatu.
We use centrifugation and we compare colors of the supernatant.
Regards"
infraredz
BULA!
It's interesting to note that flavokavain A, B, and C are all chalconoids and conjugate ring closures result in flavonoids which are responsible for a wide variety of plant pigmentation (eg. red vs yellow, for example). These chalconoids (FKA, FKB, FKC) reportedly possess antibacterial, antifungal, antitumor and anti-inflammatory properties (sound similar to kava?). Some chalconoids have demonstrated the ability to block voltage-dependent potassium channels (which is a proposed hypothesis regarding the MOA of kava, and in my opinion, sounds very likely to play a significant role in kava's effects). [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18032041]
I wonder if these secondary metabolites are in fact more important in the overall biosynthesis of different compounds than I thought. Flavonoids are responsible for a significant amount of color in a plant, and so I'm really interested if the reason we are seeing tudeis (which have FKB, unlike nobles) show a red color vs. the "control" of yellow is because of the conjugation of this phenyl ring which would cause it to to become a flavonoid, which in turn possesses specific color properties. Could the acetone/solvent be doing this? Chalconoids by themselves don't necessarily have color properties, but they serve as the intermediate in the biosynthesis to the flavonoids that do. I'll have to look into the biosynthesis of flavonoids tomorrow when I'm not so drained.
I wonder if these secondary metabolites are in fact more important in the overall biosynthesis of different compounds than I thought. Flavonoids are responsible for a significant amount of color in a plant, and so I'm really interested if the reason we are seeing tudeis (which have FKB, unlike nobles) show a red color vs. the "control" of yellow is because of the conjugation of this phenyl ring which would cause it to to become a flavonoid, which in turn possesses specific color properties. Could the acetone/solvent be doing this? Chalconoids by themselves don't necessarily have color properties, but they serve as the intermediate in the biosynthesis to the flavonoids that do. I'll have to look into the biosynthesis of flavonoids tomorrow when I'm not so drained.
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Deleted User01
Well done again Infraedz and you too Kapm. I just finished the last of my Koniak and I'm ready for the new stuff. I remember when Koniak was first released and we had our first sample, we were impressed by how potent it was. I think everyone agreed at that time that it was definitely a weekend Kava. I also remember Judd warning us that it was pretty damn strong. So I imagine that any well made Tudei-Like Kava devoid of leaves, stems, mold, etc. might fall into the weekend category for those of us who like it. I really appreciate the fact that you guys are doing your own tests and bringing back the straight skinny to the rest of us.
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pitshack
Hey infraredz. That was great stuff. I'd like to lend a little anecdotal evidence to your theory that kava interferes with voltage-gated sodium channels. I take tegretol, 800 mgs. a day as a mood stabilizer. I'm sure you know that tegretol also modulates voltage-gated sodium channels. Since I started using kava I have definetly noticed that the two seem to work in concert with each other to cause pretty significant "cognitive blunting". I didn't really have a problem with it until kava was introduced. This is just me, but I swear I can feel the kava and tegretol almost synergizing with each other.
I'd bet money that your theory is right.
I'd bet money that your theory is right.
infraredz
BULA!
There's no doubt that we love it. I am by no means trying to bash BKH's Koniak or put it in any sort of negative light.
If anyone doesn't want to see Koniak be of the tudei variety (semantics aside) it's me. That being said, I'm taking an objective position and trying to examine the information, and provide the results based on Lebot's method. The conclusion is up to you. For me, there is enough reason to doubt the safety of its use, but the data isn't conclusive. We still don't know what causes the different colors when extracted with solvents. However, with so many other good kava out there, it's just no a gamble that's worth it for me.
If anyone doesn't want to see Koniak be of the tudei variety (semantics aside) it's me. That being said, I'm taking an objective position and trying to examine the information, and provide the results based on Lebot's method. The conclusion is up to you. For me, there is enough reason to doubt the safety of its use, but the data isn't conclusive. We still don't know what causes the different colors when extracted with solvents. However, with so many other good kava out there, it's just no a gamble that's worth it for me.
infraredz
BULA!
Well, first of all it's based on some much smarter people who have published studies regarding it so I'm not going to say it's my theory.
That being said, it seems to fit the best in my head, especially compared to it being a more traditional GABAergic effect. There's definitely studies that show an affinity for GABA receptors and I wouldn't doubt if it had some sort of modulation on GABA, but to classify it as a GABA agonist just doesn't seem to mesh with the other information we have.
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pjim
Slam dunk on the video! Even if the science-stuff can be over my head, seeing is believing.
Regarding the splitting of hairs on what is and what is not to be called noble because of country-of-origin:
"I cannot see why it would be improper to refer to other good kava varieties, from other Pacific Island Countries, as nobles. If they are good, it means that they have been nobilized. There is no patent on the Vanuatu Kava Act word "noble" it can be used for other good kavas elsewhere, and the same can be said for two-days (isa is a two-day) and wichmannii kava varieties.
The main thing is for people to understand what we are referring to: quality per se" - Dr. Vincent Lebot
So, we can play semantics, but I do hope we all know what we are talking about when the word is used: Proven, good kava types extremely low in flavokawains. To me, there seems to be no question in that.
Cheers!
AP
"I cannot see why it would be improper to refer to other good kava varieties, from other Pacific Island Countries, as nobles. If they are good, it means that they have been nobilized. There is no patent on the Vanuatu Kava Act word "noble" it can be used for other good kavas elsewhere, and the same can be said for two-days (isa is a two-day) and wichmannii kava varieties.
The main thing is for people to understand what we are referring to: quality per se" - Dr. Vincent Lebot
So, we can play semantics, but I do hope we all know what we are talking about when the word is used: Proven, good kava types extremely low in flavokawains. To me, there seems to be no question in that.
Cheers!
AP
There's just no criteria. Fijians, for example, don't talk about noble kava. How do we decide that we can call any kava grown there or any place other than Vanuatu "noble"? If we, as kava vendors and consumers were to deem a kava from any place other than Vanuatu a "noble" then go to the farmer that grows it and say, "Hey, this is noble kava, right?" He or she would ask us what the hell we're talking about. "Noble" kavas are a specific group of known cultivars from Vanuatu. If we want to start calling other kava varieties noble there should be a specific criteria. Even if we did come up with something specific it would still be a reference known only to this small community and would be a foreign concept to most of the kava drinking world.
Kovet da Kava
Kava Curious
Well, I'm still finishing mine. It's got to be better than all the alcohol I was consuming before I started drinking Kava again. Hopefully, more info will be forthcoming. Bula!
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Deleted User01
I really wished someone would do a study that compared liver damage from alcohol to Kava. I have been drinking booze for all of my adult life and perhaps abuse it a little on the weekends, so far so good. Now that I use Kava, I don't drink alc on my Kava days and I find my craving for alcohol is not as great on my non-Kava days. It would be nice to see a study that compared drinking 3 shells of Kava everyday to drinking 3 oz. of alcohol everyday. Maybe Infraredz will lead that study some time down the road. No telling how many years it would take to get decent data.