Perplexed by Tudei Controversy

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Safer levels or none? I was reading that noble had none. What is a safe or dangerous level? Can you point me towards one that has a safe tested level.

Noble kava has Flavokavains, just several times less than Tudei.
Anecdotally, they all have a safe tested level.

@Delicate Drunk Tudei controversy has several angles....
Some people don't want tudei simply because the acute side-effects can be much more unpleasant than noble kavas and the next day 'hangover' can range from simple lethargy to sick & incapacitated.
On the ethics/business side, people want to know what they're getting and to make sure they're actually getting what they paid for. Don't sell me a bottle of Grey Goose at full price, if it's actually half cut with bathtub hooch.
Science experts recommend against tudei because they only see serious kava related health issues arise in places where tudei/alc. extract was consumed, but never in traditional cultures who deliberately choose noble kava for regular consumption. Oh and because of studies like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/ etc...

 

[Delicate Drunk]

Hi @Delicate Drunk, I think you are wrong in this statement, this is not a theory and there is more than one scientist that adheres to this test and uses it, I can think of 4 right of the batt and that these scientists were at the 2015 International Kava Conference. I admit it is not a very old test, it is only about 8 years old but it works, it gives us a tool to see the range of adulteration in kava. It is easy to see on the low end is 100% pure Noble kava, like Hawaiian Nene and the farther you go up it starts to get into the tudei kava, so this is simply a reliable test for the consumers to use so they can decide if the kava they have is where they want the spectrum to be. Some people do not care as much as others and some people speculate that there is no harm in kava that is tudei or has tudei mixed with noble kava. The point is that it is a tool to allow the consumer who wants a good noble kava and wants to stay away from the tudei, this test allows them to see if there kava is closer to noble kava or closer to tudei kava. On the other side of the coin it also lets the consumer that wants tudei to see what kava might have higher amounts of tudei, if that is what they want. I just wanted to let you know that it is not just a theory and it is supported by more than one scientist. I hope this helps in your understanding of this test. Aloha from the Hilo side.

Chris

Aloha Chris,
Thanks for the comment. I really love your kava! I am excited to watch the science around kava evolve so I read this forum quite a bit. It seems to me that there is some mystery around tudei, and that research about kava is still ongoing in many ways. Do scientists really know for certain yet what makes tudei worse than noble? I mean which specific chemicals? Are the chemicals unhealthy or just unpleasant? Are some of the chemicals that are in high amounts in tudei cancer fighting?

Also for me, since I often drink a lot of kava at one sitting, I can get a little nausea and hangover from noble kava, so I don’t think noble is perfect, and wonder how tudei could be that much worse. I think I read that you tried tudei before, is that correct? So I am curious, if you drink a small amount of tudei, so that you don’t get sick, are there still positive effects at the low dose, and are the positive effects comparable to a moderate dose of noble kava?

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Effects can def be bad and unpleasant. All of the key kava literature agrees. If you only get some mild effects then your tudei is likely to be weak/old (plus perhaps some people are less sensitive than others). The only recent "medicinal" use of tudei I've heard of is that certain women in Vanuatu used to drink tudei before giving birth to ease the extreme pain. Could be a rumor though.

As for tudei safety, I recommend listening to this guy's recommendations

 

[Naturemankava]

Noble kava has Flavokavains, just several times less than Tudei.
Anecdotally, they all have a safe tested level.

@Delicate Drunk Tudei controversy has several angles....
Some people don't want tudei simply because the acute side-effects can be much more unpleasant than noble kavas and the next day 'hangover' can range from simple lethargy to sick & incapacitated.
On the ethics/business side, people want to know what they're getting and to make sure they're actually getting what they paid for. Don't sell me a bottle of Grey Goose at full price, if it's actually half cut with bathtub hooch.
Science experts recommend against tudei because they only see serious kava related health issues arise in places where tudei/alc. extract was consumed, but never in traditional cultures who deliberately choose noble kava for regular consumption. Oh and because of studies like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/ etc...

Dr Lebot says noble kava has no Flavokavin B in one of his videos. Can you show me a better study Shakas, showing FKB & FKA in noble kava? ...not just hear say pls

New studies show FK B & A being better than we once thought?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavokavain_B
2013- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3681603/
2013- http://www.molecular-cancer.com/content/12/1/55
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15833884
Flavokavain A 2014- http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105244

Looks like kava may be a good drug in the future for Cancer.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

studies are hear-say ?
FK's as a cancer fighter is old news here. That doesn't make tudei good for you. How does it kill cancer ? By killing cells.
Lebot saying there are no Fk's in Noble is probably akin to saying celery has no calories...it does, but the amount is negligible compared to butter.

Recent confirmation Lebot et al. (2014) confirmed a clear correlation between kava nobility and the ratio of flavokavins to kavalactones by HPTLC ->
22 noble cultivars: FL/KL = 0.29 ± 0.10
10 medicinal: 0.41 ± 0.08
47 Two-day: 1.02 ± 0.28
9 Piper wichmannii types 0.75 ± 0.15

More definitive and corroborated answers about this would surely be great, but with what we already know, and with proper noble kava out there to drink...why would you even be bothered with trying to vindicate tudei ? In my experience, the only people who try to do this are the people who are trying to unload their shitty product and not lose money on a bad investment.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Aloha Chris,
Thanks for the comment. I really love your kava! I am excited to watch the science around kava evolve so I read this forum quite a bit. It seems to me that there is some mystery around tudei, and that research about kava is still ongoing in many ways. Do scientists really know for certain yet what makes tudei worse than noble? I mean which specific chemicals? Are the chemicals unhealthy or just unpleasant? Are some of the chemicals that are in high amounts in tudei cancer fighting?

Also for me, since I often drink a lot of kava at one sitting, I can get a little nausea and hangover from noble kava, so I don’t think noble is perfect, and wonder how tudei could be that much worse. I think I read that you tried tudei before, is that correct? So I am curious, if you drink a small amount of tudei, so that you don’t get sick, are there still positive effects at the low dose, and are the positive effects comparable to a moderate dose of noble kava?

Hi @Delicate Drunk, did you get enough rain today? It has been so wet on the Hilo side today. I am happy to hear that you like my kava, it is the same stuff I drink and I love it too.
I agree there is a mystery around the Tudei kava but I can fix that. In Vanuatu where most consider kava to have originated they do have Noble kava and Tudei kava but the point is that they never used it for drinking, I will say that again, they never used tudei kava for drinking. They only used it for medicine and some ceremonial purposes. Tudei never was used like it is today until the pharmaceutical and nutraceutical companies and even China requested it and that is because they only wanted kavalactones and tudei is full of them. The reason that it was never a drinking kava is because it is high in some kavalactones that we do not like of I should say that it has higher concentrations of some of the kavalactones that can cause nausea and vomiting and the two day effect, the Noble kava has just the right amount of these kavalactones so that it gives us the great qualities in kava that we look for. So because of that we have a lot of people getting into kava that do not know the difference or what the tudei kava was used for. So in reality the tudei should have never been used or brought to the market for us to consume. The research on kava is going to be ongoing because it is a plant that works well and has great potential to benefit mankind, we have found out through this research that the thing that caused the liver problems was a company that bought all the parts of the kava plant that were not to be used for drinking (all the aerial parts) and they were using tudei kava as well. so we can see the need to stick to the traditional way that the Pacific Islanders used kava. They are finding some interesting things about tudei kava, a lot of people are talking about FK A and B, but now we know there is a FK C, it that good or bad I do not know but I do know that the people in Vanuatu who love to drink kava will NOT drink tudei kava. They have been drinking noble kava for over 3000 years so I am sure there is something to that. Weather our scientists will find good things to use in a tudei kava I am sure it will be in the form of a pill and in the form of an isolated substance, they will not be telling us to go and get some Isa and drink 2 cups and call me in the morning.
There are some things in kava that are found to stop Cancer from growing and there is other research on this that is ongoing. But I know one scientist that started his research on kava and cancer because he noticed that the people of Vanuatu did not get lung cancer even though they smoke a lot of cigarettes and these people drink Noble kava not tudei kava. So until we got more science on this I am only promoting a known good thing and that would be a 100% Noble kava.
Yes I have tried tudei kava and I got sick from it, it was fresh and pure tudei so that had a lot to do with it. If you were to drink a kava that had some tudei and some noble the effects you get will depend on you and to a large extent the amount of tudei in the mix, you can expect the nausea to be more than what you get with Noble kava and also it has been noted that the more you drink tudei kava the more it seems to build up in your system and the more unwanted side effects you might get. For that reason I only drink pure Noble kava.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. Please let me know if you have any other questions, I can go into more detail and I can talk about this for a long time. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Who are the other scientists? (just curious).

I won't name them all but you all know the most famous, Dr. Lebot but there are others, for example in Vanuatu they use the acetone test on there COA's and in Tonga and in Samoa they are using this to check there imported kava. It is a good way to check to see if your in the Noble ball park or the tudei ball park. Aloha.

Chris

 

[Naturemankava]

studies are hear-say ?
FK's as a cancer fighter is old news here. That doesn't make tudei good for you. How does it kill cancer ? By killing cells.
Lebot saying there is no Fk's in Noble is probably akin to saying celery has no calories...it does, but the amount is negligible compared to butter.

Recent confirmation Lebot et al. (2014) confirmed a clear correlation between kava nobility and the ratio of flavokavins to kavalactones by HPTLC ->
22 noble cultivars: FL/KL = 0.29 ± 0.10
10 medicinal: 0.41 ± 0.08
47 Two-day: 1.02 ± 0.28
9 Piper wichmannii types 0.75 ± 0.15

More definitive and corroborated answers about this would surely be great, but with what we already know, and with proper noble kava out there to drink...why would you even be bothered with trying to vindicate tudei ? In my experience, the only people who try to do this are the people who are trying to unload their shitty product and not lose money on a bad investment.

"Studies are here say" No sry I didn't try to say it that way... just wanted more details for my head,
Thank you for the details.
It looks like wichmanni type and Two-day has much more.
I'm guessing these numbers are mgs per gram...

Shakas do you have a kava you like most? Why? ...I have mostly tried the powder from health food stores(little affects/burning biter) , and some ordered from swanson's vitamin,

 

[Delicate Drunk]

Hi @Delicate Drunk, did you get enough rain today? It has been so wet on the Hilo side today. I am happy to hear that you like my kava, it is the same stuff I drink and I love it too.
I agree there is a mystery around the Tudei kava but I can fix that. In Vanuatu where most consider kava to have originated they do have Noble kava and Tudei kava but the point is that they never used it for drinking, I will say that again, they never used tudei kava for drinking. They only used it for medicine and some ceremonial purposes. Tudei never was used like it is today until the pharmaceutical and nutraceutical companies and even China requested it and that is because they only wanted kavalactones and tudei is full of them. The reason that it was never a drinking kava is because it is high in some kavalactones that we do not like of I should say that it has higher concentrations of some of the kavalactones that can cause nausea and vomiting and the two day effect, the Noble kava has just the right amount of these kavalactones so that it gives us the great qualities in kava that we look for. So because of that we have a lot of people getting into kava that do not know the difference or what the tudei kava was used for. So in reality the tudei should have never been used or brought to the market for us to consume. The research on kava is going to be ongoing because it is a plant that works well and has great potential to benefit mankind, we have found out through this research that the thing that caused the liver problems was a company that bought all the parts of the kava plant that were not to be used for drinking (all the aerial parts) and they were using tudei kava as well. so we can see the need to stick to the traditional way that the Pacific Islanders used kava. They are finding some interesting things about tudei kava, a lot of people are talking about FK A and B, but now we know there is a FK C, it that good or bad I do not know but I do know that the people in Vanuatu who love to drink kava will NOT drink tudei kava. They have been drinking noble kava for over 3000 years so I am sure there is something to that. Weather our scientists will find good things to use in a tudei kava I am sure it will be in the form of a pill and in the form of an isolated substance, they will not be telling us to go and get some Isa and drink 2 cups and call me in the morning.
There are some things in kava that are found to stop Cancer from growing and there is other research on this that is ongoing. But I know one scientist that started his research on kava and cancer because he noticed that the people of Vanuatu did not get lung cancer even though they smoke a lot of cigarettes and these people drink Noble kava not tudei kava. So until we got more science on this I am only promoting a known good thing and that would be a 100% Noble kava.
Yes I have tried tudei kava and I got sick from it, it was fresh and pure tudei so that had a lot to do with it. If you were to drink a kava that had some tudei and some noble the effects you get will depend on you and to a large extent the amount of tudei in the mix, you can expect the nausea to be more than what you get with Noble kava and also it has been noted that the more you drink tudei kava the more it seems to build up in your system and the more unwanted side effects you might get. For that reason I only drink pure Noble kava.
I hope I was able to answer your questions. Please let me know if you have any other questions, I can go into more detail and I can talk about this for a long time. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

Hi Chris, yes lately it has been raining pretty good over here in Kona. I love it because I miss the rainy Hilo side a lot!
Thanks for the detailed and informative response! Does tudei kava smell or look different than noble? I read on some other posts that it might be much darker color powder? Is the smell different? Do you have any pictures of tudei plants, lateral root or powder? I remember sometimes going into health food stores to buy kava powder and finding all kinds of odd things that were supposed to be kava, but since I knew what real kava looks and smells like I never bought this stuff. Maybe it was tudei?

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Hi Chris, yes lately it has been raining pretty good over here in Kona. I love it because I miss the rainy Hilo side a lot!
Thanks for the detailed and informative response! Does tudei kava smell or look different than noble? I read on some other posts that it might be much darker color powder? Is the smell different? Do you have any pictures of tudei plants, lateral root or powder? I remember sometimes going into health food stores to buy kava powder and finding all kinds of odd things that were supposed to be kava, but since I knew what real kava looks and smells like I never bought this stuff. Maybe it was tudei?

Yes the tudei kava does look and smell different. The tudei kava is more yellow than Noble kava, see pictures----
Noble kava---

Tudei kava----

This is a picture of the leaves and the flower, the flowers of the tudei kava is always longer and larger than Noble kava.---

Even the stalks look different, for example the Hawaiian varieties are all nice and colorful but the Tudei kava is plain looking and has large bumps or what they call lenticils.---

As for the smell of the Tudei, it has a more strong kava smell, the noble kava smells more mellow than the tudei and the tudei kava has a noticeable piney smell to it. So we would look for the yellow color and the piney smell if we were looking at fresh root to see if it might be Tudei kava. I hope this helps, aloha.

Chris

 

[Kavakaize]

Agreed that machete is righteous! Thanks for pictures Chris

 

[Kavakaize]

Noble or no thanks for me.
Personally I appreciate all the effort and hard work that goes into providing good clean kava for the people, there is a reason why the islanders don't drink tudei in my humble opinion . Hats off to the people who make this part of there lifes work. Bula

 

[kasa_balavu]

The tudei kava is more yellow than Noble kava, see pictures----
Noble kava---

Tudei kava----

This is a picture of the leaves and the flower, the flowers of the tudei kava is always longer and larger than Noble kava.---
Chris

Hi Chris,
I've never seen Tudei kava plants or roots, but I believe I've seen noble kava that is almost as yellow as that. In my experience, a bit of yellowing comes with age (6 to 7yrs +). I haven't harvested kava in almost a decade though, so it's very possible that I'm misremembering. Have you noticed that older kava waka/lawena is yellower than young kava?

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Hi Chris,
I've never seen Tudei kava plants or roots, but I believe I've seen noble kava that is almost as yellow as that. In my experience, a bit of yellowing comes with age (6 to 7yrs +). I haven't harvested kava in almost a decade though, so it's very possible that I'm misremembering. Have you noticed that older kava waka/lawena is yellower than young kava?

Yes you are right, noble kava can get yellow like in the picture but the Tudei kava will always be noticeably more yellow, also the smell of the root is a dead giveaway, so by looking at the color and the smell you can tell if it is a tudei for the most part. Aloha.

Chris

 

[Delicate Drunk]

Thanks for the pics and info, Chris. I don't suppose I will encounter tudei very much in the fresh form here in Hawaii, but it's really interesting to see what the plant actually looks like. I wonder how the plant evolved from tudei to noble, if that's what happened. The plants never do produce seeds, correct? So it must have taken a long time for the various varieties of kava to evolve.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

How does kava reproduce ? (Naturally )

 

[The Kap'n]

How does kava reproduce ? (Naturally )

Piper Methysticum reproduces only through grafting. If I'm not mistaken it has no natural way of reproducing. We depend on kava, kava depends on us.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

No way! Kava was born after humans then ?

 

[kasa_balavu]

How does kava reproduce ? (Naturally )

Each node in a kava branch has the potential to grow into a new plant.

I suppose if branches were to be broken off, or fell to the ground while still in a healthy state, roots and shoots would sprout from the nodes. This very rarely happens though. Piper Methysticum has been thoroughly domesticated and won't grow in the wild.

EDIT: Damnit beaten again. I type up a response and by the time I post, there are two new messages. Slow fingers lol