Zac Imiola (Herbalist)
Kava Connoisseur
So it has been altered to not be able to reproduce but it orginally could. That makes more sense than it litterally cant survive without humans from the start. That would be fascinating lol.
Perplexed by Tudei Controversy
- Thread starter Delicate Drunk
- Start date
Zac Imiola (Herbalist)
Kava Connoisseur
Ha no problem. Your response was very helpful !
Technically no, Piper Wichmannii was the original wild form of kava, and through careful attribute selection the islanders grew kava that was more suited to the effect profile they were looking for. After it was refined over those who-knows-how-many years, the new strain Piper Methysticum came to be, and still requires humans if it's to continue on. So if humans disappeared overnight Piper Methysticum would cease to exist, (eventually) however the wild version (Wichmannii) would continue to thrive. I like to think of it as one of humanities first GMO products (in a very loose sense)
Zac Imiola (Herbalist)
Kava Connoisseur
So kava AND dogs are human created awesomeness 
Zac Imiola (Herbalist)
Kava Connoisseur
Those watermelons look gross lol
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
There has been a witch hunt against Tudei for the past couple of years.
Your story is one among many that express confusion about this Kava family fight. My feeling is that certain vendors have teamed up with pseudo-scientists to push their agenda forward, along with their bank accounts. As someone who has also consumed Tudei for the better part of 15 years, I have grown to enjoy it as a great weekend Kava with noticeable differences in effect. This witch hunt has pushed many vendors to take Tudei off the shelves, thus limiting our choices and options and indeed our access to different varieties. My feeling is also that this witch hunt gives credence to the FDA and other regulatory boards, who look for any weakness within our community to exploit.
Your story is one among many that express confusion about this Kava family fight. My feeling is that certain vendors have teamed up with pseudo-scientists to push their agenda forward, along with their bank accounts. As someone who has also consumed Tudei for the better part of 15 years, I have grown to enjoy it as a great weekend Kava with noticeable differences in effect. This witch hunt has pushed many vendors to take Tudei off the shelves, thus limiting our choices and options and indeed our access to different varieties. My feeling is also that this witch hunt gives credence to the FDA and other regulatory boards, who look for any weakness within our community to exploit.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
In summary: it's a manufactured controversy.
YogaNatureLvr
Kava Enthusiast
Kavasseur, I love your blogs and reviews and I thank you for helping steer me in the right direction as a beginner.
I have tasted maybe a dozen different kavas. When I started, it was all about potency. I didn't understand the distinction between noble and tudei, and that tudei could have adverse reactions to some (but not all) people.
One night I had Tudei/isa by Kava by Rex. I woke up in the middle of the night with a splitting headache. I couldn't sleep, and had to take pain killers (which is really rare for me) just to get back to sleep. I mistakenly thought I was just dehydrated, and began making kava with coconut water, because I had read that doing it this way could reduce the dehydration and diuretic effects of kava.
Basically, I was barking up the wrong tree. After a lot of research, I found thie link to the acetone tests on truekava.com. Then I was able to go back through all the kavas I had drunk, and sure enough there was a correlation between the amount of tudei indicated by the acetone tests and my negative effects. The pure Tudei/Isa was indeed the worst for me, but even some of the other mildly adulterated ones were problematic.
Now that I have moved solely to noble varietals by GHK and KWK, it is incredible how I have absolutely no headaches, GI problems, dry skin or hangovers. Those were all symptoms I had in the past, the intensity of which was directly correlated to the amount of Tudei in whatever blend I was drinking. I no longer need to mix my kava with coconut water. In fact, I prefer regular water because I can refrigerate it and the kava lasts longer.
To me, it's all about truth in labeling. If Tudei works for you, great. But I just wish I had known that for some people, Tudei can cause some pretty nasty effects. Not to single out KBR, but their web site talks about the potency of their Tudei/Isa, but nowhere does it say that Tudei may have adverse effects on some people. As a beginner, I wish I had known that. To their credit, KBR's Tudei is clearly labeled as such. What really bugs me is other kavas where there is no indication that there may be some Tudei in it. I think we all deserve to know what we're drinking. From there, we can make out own choices about what works best for us.
I have tasted maybe a dozen different kavas. When I started, it was all about potency. I didn't understand the distinction between noble and tudei, and that tudei could have adverse reactions to some (but not all) people.
One night I had Tudei/isa by Kava by Rex. I woke up in the middle of the night with a splitting headache. I couldn't sleep, and had to take pain killers (which is really rare for me) just to get back to sleep. I mistakenly thought I was just dehydrated, and began making kava with coconut water, because I had read that doing it this way could reduce the dehydration and diuretic effects of kava.
Basically, I was barking up the wrong tree. After a lot of research, I found thie link to the acetone tests on truekava.com. Then I was able to go back through all the kavas I had drunk, and sure enough there was a correlation between the amount of tudei indicated by the acetone tests and my negative effects. The pure Tudei/Isa was indeed the worst for me, but even some of the other mildly adulterated ones were problematic.
Now that I have moved solely to noble varietals by GHK and KWK, it is incredible how I have absolutely no headaches, GI problems, dry skin or hangovers. Those were all symptoms I had in the past, the intensity of which was directly correlated to the amount of Tudei in whatever blend I was drinking. I no longer need to mix my kava with coconut water. In fact, I prefer regular water because I can refrigerate it and the kava lasts longer.
To me, it's all about truth in labeling. If Tudei works for you, great. But I just wish I had known that for some people, Tudei can cause some pretty nasty effects. Not to single out KBR, but their web site talks about the potency of their Tudei/Isa, but nowhere does it say that Tudei may have adverse effects on some people. As a beginner, I wish I had known that. To their credit, KBR's Tudei is clearly labeled as such. What really bugs me is other kavas where there is no indication that there may be some Tudei in it. I think we all deserve to know what we're drinking. From there, we can make out own choices about what works best for us.
YogaNatureLvr
Kava Enthusiast
http://www.truekava.com/acetone-test.html
This is the link to the acetone tests that I was referring to above.
This is the link to the acetone tests that I was referring to above.
I don't think anybody in there right mind would consider Dr. Lebot or Dr. Schmidt or others like them "pseudo-scientist" These are the ones that have given us a greater understanding of kava and have helped kava come out of the great kava ban. I agree with Deleted User these statements are just plain wrong and unsubstantiated. I like pure Noble kava because it does not "cloud the brain" .
Aloha.
Chris
Aloha.
Chris
Crunked
Proselytizer
Couldn't agree more, Chris.I don't think anybody in there right mind would consider Dr. Lebot or Dr. Schmidt or others like them "pseudo-scientist" These are the ones that have given us a greater understanding of kava and have helped kava come out of the great kava ban. I agree with Deleted User these statements are just plain wrong and unsubstantiated. I like pure Noble kava because it does not "cloud the brain" .
Aloha.
Chris
Delicate Drunk
Kava Curious
Does the Wichmannii have seeds then?
I wonder how the islanders caused the Wichmannii to change into different varieties, and how it ended up not having seeds as it evolved into the modern varieties of kava.
Delicate Drunk
Kava Curious
I have visited ancient, and quite large patches of kava, way in the backs of jungle valleys in Hawaii that are happily thriving without any humans around. They must have been planted by Hawaiians a long time ago, but they seem to be thriving and spreading on their own mostly just like you said--branches falling and the nodes sprouting. The corms of these plants were humongous and the potency very nice as well.Each node in a kava branch has the potential to grow into a new plant.
I suppose if branches were to be broken off, or fell to the ground while still in a healthy state, roots and shoots would sprout from the nodes. This very rarely happens though. Piper Methysticum has been thoroughly domesticated and won't grow in the wild.
EDIT: Damnit beaten again. I type up a response and by the time I post, there are two new messages. Slow fingers lol
Delicate Drunk
Kava Curious
What are the noticeable differences in effects? Many people seem to be saying it's horrible, but perhaps it would be ok for me as well. I think I am just curious. In the past when I was a very heavy kava consumer I always wanted to try tudei because it was touted as being very potent, but it was not easy to find at that time. At least I didn't think so.
Kalm with Kava
Kava Vendor
Unfortunately this isn't an issue of marketing ploys or witch hunts. Every vendor has the ability to differentiate, purchase, and clearly label the distinct differences between Tudei and Noble kava leaving the consumer to decide. But they should definitely be informed of the differences. Purchasing or growing 100% Noble kava is very laborious and costly. At the same time those who choose to offer only Noble varieties have to compete with pricing of much cheaper mixed kava varieties so if there was any accounts to be padded, it would be for those who purchase discount mixed kavas, do no testing, and provide no clear distinction.
There are plenty of real world accounts (especially on here) of people having issues with the consumption of Tudei kava- increased lethargy, nausea, dermopathy, and those are the short term side effects. The real concern is the long term issues of increased FK content and other unknowns that make Tudei varieties distinctly different from Noble varieties. There are also many studies done by many scientists detailing all this – here’s just a quick few from 9 separate scientists
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2125.2010.03775.x/full
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0308814613018086
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00048674.2010.522554
Add on Ni-Vans who have drank kava for 100s of years choosing not to drink or export (legally) Tudei kava. It may have its place as a medicinal product but people new to kava should be aware of the differences before consuming. As you yourself stated you save Tudei varieties for weekend use, noticing differences. There may be genetic differences that make Tudei kava more tolerable with some people, but personally it does a number on me with significant lethargy, brain fog, and a general unwell feeling the next day. Hence the name Tudei. I hate to think of the new person who tries a Tudei kava and disregards kava as whole if they experience unpleasant side effects associated with it. This only hurts the reputation of all kava. The same can be said for K@ laced kava drinks. Sure, K@ may be beneficial for some, but consumers need to be informed of what they are ingesting and able to make their own decisions.
I am all for continued advocacy of kava as a whole and thoroughly appreciate everything you have done in the past to help bring kava mainstream. I wish you luck with your endeavor on continuing this in the near future and will help anyway I can. I just hope you reconsider disregarding scientific literature and someone who has dedicated decades of their life to studying kava and ensuring it's safety for all.
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kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
I've heard about these, and would love to see them one day. I'm told they're very rare now, with the locations being a closely guarded secret.