recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
You stayed with 2 tbs total, right? In one liter? Do you ever mix noble kavas at that ratio (for comparison)?
Tudei is the day!
- Thread starter Edward
- Start date
I did but I drank the shells pretty fast so I got it in pretty quick. I do sometimes only use a couple of tablespoons of some of the stronger nobles especially if I'm short of time but then I will use less water.
Let us know how that one makes you feel afterwards too, I'm intrigued.
Second shell in and I'm feeling just fine. These are both very relaxing kavas, you get a big hit of body feeling and then it just stays with you. I can't say that this gives you the best kava experience I've ever had but I can certainly see that it has it's uses. For pain and/or insomnia this will definitely do the trick. I can't imagine I will feel too bad in the morning, you'd have to overdo it to get much more than a nice morning afterglow. I'll be sure to update.
recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
Did you just make 2 tbs again? Is it a clear-headed relaxed chilled-out thing or a lethargic just wanna close your eyes thing, can't even stand the sound of music kinda thing?
Palmetto
Thank God!
Here's my take on the tudei controversy: Go ahead and try it if you like. But unless you are taking it to fight cancer, the high flavokawain levels might discourage you from making tudeis a regular choice. I have had tudei like effects from supposedly noble kavas too. But I personally wouldn't want to drink a kava cultivar or blend that had more than 20% DHM. After a few days, you really want to avoid exercise when you drinking that stuff a lot. Your muscles just don't want to do anything, and you get up slower in the morning. I even went through a year of preferring high DHK kavas, but now I'm back to wanting more balanced or slightly heady kavas more.
recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
I agree. The side effect from kava I hate most is residual muscle relaxation; specifically cause it makes me not want to exercise.
I used 3 and it's a stronger kava than the tudei so I had a stronger effect last night. I drank it a bit later in the evening as well so I've got more of an afterglow this morning but nothing unpleasant and nothing that I wouldn't get with a stronger heavy noble. You do still feel clear headed, the best way I can describe it is like drinking a strong noble kava like stone, supreme or hiwa but only getting the heavy aspects of it, no initial euphoria or feelgood, just immediate body numbing and a creeping sedation. I wouldn't describe it in any way as unpleasurable, not on the night of drinking or the next day. I'm sure if you overdid it all you'd feel is a bit wiped out the next day. It's not something that you would want to drink every day. If I had chronic pain and/or insomnia this would be a godsend. As it is this is the type of thing that I would want to drink a few times a month on the weekend.
I get what you're saying and yes, this type of kava will give you that effect but of course some people would like that effect too.
I've said a bit about this in the post above but I don't think anybody would suggest drinking tudei on a daily basis. It has specific uses like pain or insomnia but beyond that noble kavas are actually more pleasurable. I'm not aware of any solid evidence so far that high FKB levels are harmful to you in any way and also if you drink the Isa the FKB levels are actually only a fraction above most nobles. Considering that you are going to be consuming less Isa to get an effect you're actually going to be consuming less FKB!
Now I've tried both of these kavas I'm starting to question just what "tudei like effects" actually means. The only side effect I have had the next day is the warm afterglow and sort of contented relaxation that I can get from any strong noble heavy kava. In fact I would go as far to say as you're more likely to feel ill the next day from drinking noble kava because you're coming down from a higher high. Of course you need to think about your dose and when you're drinking but on the whole there is nothing wrong with this type of kava, it's just different.
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
This seems to be what's confusing so many people. It's the reason I try to ask users (especially newer ones) what specific effects they felt when they declare a product to be tudei. For me the signature has always been heavier sedation/mind&muscle relaxation lasting for most of the next day, when I wasn't expecting it. It's been a while since I've had one strong enough but like you said, even strong and heavy nobles can give you the afterglow and make it a bit tough to get up early in the morning and keep you dragging for a bit until it completely wears off.
I personally think tudei/isa are best when paired with an appropriately potent noble. For me the DHM and deep, relaxful sleep is the perfect way to finish off the more buzzy kavain effects. Maybe it's because of my experiences early on or my desire to end the day with a strong relaxant... Of course testing and labeling is critical so that you can dose them correctly or use one or the other depending on the situation.
A lot of the problem is the anti tudei bias of certain factions spreading misinformation about it. I'm as guilty as anyone else of believing what I first read about tudei and it's effects. Now I've tried it I know that's complete nonsense and I won't go into the motives behind why certain people have been spreading this misinformation. At the end of the day tudei/isa has it's place in your stash if you want something to heavily decrease pain and give you a good sleep when noble kava won't quite do the job.
@Henry no, no one is likely to suggest that for most people drinking tudei on a regular basis is a good idea but for some people and in certain doses it definitely has it's uses. I wonder where you got the tudei that made you that ill and how much of it you drank? I doubt that anyone would experience anything like that from the kavas being sold by various vendors at the moment.
Tudei is more likely to cause nausea and give a hangover effect but only if you drink it in quantity. I've drunk non noble kava for the last two nights and had less nausea than I normally get with noble kava. I have also not had any significant next day effects and certainly nothing different from what I would expect from a strong noble kava.
FKB levels are a bit of a red herring when you consider that the PNG Isa has only marginally higher levels than most noble kavas and so as you drink less Isa you're probably taking in less FKB!
I think it's up to individuals to decide if it's for them or not. Like I say I can see medicinal uses for it but past that it's generally not a significantly better experience than drinking a good noble. I just don't think people with chronic pain should be denied these kavas because of the opinions of others.
Tudei is more likely to cause nausea and give a hangover effect but only if you drink it in quantity. I've drunk non noble kava for the last two nights and had less nausea than I normally get with noble kava. I have also not had any significant next day effects and certainly nothing different from what I would expect from a strong noble kava.
FKB levels are a bit of a red herring when you consider that the PNG Isa has only marginally higher levels than most noble kavas and so as you drink less Isa you're probably taking in less FKB!
I think it's up to individuals to decide if it's for them or not. Like I say I can see medicinal uses for it but past that it's generally not a significantly better experience than drinking a good noble. I just don't think people with chronic pain should be denied these kavas because of the opinions of others.
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
I can understand the logic of noble being the latest progression. High kavain is much more recreational and I can see it being very desirable for a society that had no access to alcohol or similar psychoactive substances. I think most of us that want to retain access to the higher quality non nobles are using kava as a medicinal substance. If all I wanted was a social alternative to alcohol, high kavain and low DHM would be fine. I'm also sure that some non nobles are better/worse than others. Obviously nobles, with their shorter activity duration would be more forgiving if the dose is too high or the cultivar has effects that aren't desired.
Krunkie McKrunkface
Kava Connoisseur
Or maybe just advise all noobs wait one year before trying tudei?
Of course, wine did this, went from a crude and in many ways unpleasant drink which was almost undrinkable unless you watered it down to a very refined and sophisticated product that could sell for millions a bottle. Similarly, kava seems to have gone through millenia of selective refinements.
I wonder how many people like me would still drink kava even if it had zero intoxicating effects? It's interesting there is a huge and growing market for cannabis which provides zero intoxication, though it is still banned to the public in most places. They just took it off the shelves in MI, and that was just the stuff made from hemp, where they had been only briefly for a few months. Parents who started their kids with seizure disorders on it are royally screwed as it takes a while, as with many similar anti-seizure meds, to taper up to the proper dosage. Also, you can't just quit it, you have to taper down, while transitioning to another med. Not that this action by the state of MI bothers me or anything. Suspecting that such a dirty trick might occur we held off on using it with our son, even though we really wanted to. We knew the risk of something like this happening was too great. Sorry, rant mode off.
Of course, wine did this, went from a crude and in many ways unpleasant drink which was almost undrinkable unless you watered it down to a very refined and sophisticated product that could sell for millions a bottle. Similarly, kava seems to have gone through millenia of selective refinements.
I wonder how many people like me would still drink kava even if it had zero intoxicating effects? It's interesting there is a huge and growing market for cannabis which provides zero intoxication, though it is still banned to the public in most places. They just took it off the shelves in MI, and that was just the stuff made from hemp, where they had been only briefly for a few months. Parents who started their kids with seizure disorders on it are royally screwed as it takes a while, as with many similar anti-seizure meds, to taper up to the proper dosage. Also, you can't just quit it, you have to taper down, while transitioning to another med. Not that this action by the state of MI bothers me or anything. Suspecting that such a dirty trick might occur we held off on using it with our son, even though we really wanted to. We knew the risk of something like this happening was too great. Sorry, rant mode off.
Krunkie McKrunkface
Kava Connoisseur
There is definitely that element in these early days of our experience of kava culture. That's why I would never joke about rubbing dry medium grind in your eyeballs, someone would do it. I do believe every other orifice has been postulated at one time or another.
It's interesting that Lebot has a chapter on taste in Buveurs de Kava particularly in regards to its role in development and dissemination of particular cultivars. I think that as the kava culture becomes more and more refined, we'll see that kind of movement, too, away from the strong effects towards more refined taste and less emphasis on brute effects. The people at expensive restaurants in London or Paris paying $100k for a bottle of wine are not getting drunk on it. Heck, we are still hashing out the issue of immediate effects vs long term effects, and obvious effects vs subtle effects. I find more and more that just because an effect is subtle doesn't mean it isn't powerful or profound or long lasting. Maybe just hard to notice at first.
I seem to remember you telling me about it. That was sold to you as noble so it's likely you drank a fair amount of it. I'm not saying that kava being sold as noble when it's not isn't a problem any more but we're talking here about drinking specific kavas that are known to be tudei or isa, going in with your eyes open and judging the effects for yourself.
A couple or three tablespoons is all I'd want to drink of these kavas, it's all you need. I can't see that anything would change the next time I drink these kavas at that dose so although I admit my experience with these kavas is limited we can at least say that I have enjoyed them and had no negative effects. If you believe a lot of what you read I should have had horrendous side effects and that just hasn't happened. Again, I'd agree that tudei/isa kavas have the potential to cause more nausea and next day effects in large doses but that's why no one recommends drinking them in large doses. On FKB so far all the scientists have come up with is that it is "possibly problematic". That doesn't mean it's known to be harmful. It's like beer and whisky. Drink a pint of beer a day for the rest of your life and it probably won't have much impact. Drink a pint of whisky a day and it probably will. Does that mean that whisky is inherently worse than beer? No, it just means that you need to moderate your dose. A small glass of whisky a day is likely as fine as drinking a pint of beer a day.
I don't think it's unreasonable for kava enthusiasts to provide information about the difference between the kavas as long as its good information. Do you think that everything posted everywhere on the kavaforums about tudei causing bad next day effects, etc is all correct? Certainly there are people such a yourself who have had bad experiences from drinking tudei kava whether knowingly or unknowingly but there are enough people reporting that they have drunk tudei/isa kava, myself included, who have reported no such negative effects. I agree that the government of Vanuatu and wherever else should have the right to decide what they do or don't export but most non noble kavas being sold now are Isa from Hawaii or PNG.
The more information that is out there the better. Talking about non noble kava is better than not talking about it because anyone reading this will be able to see two sides of the story. Anyone who comes across my upcoming review on youtube seeing me drink non noble kava with all the caveats about it will get to decide for themselves if it is something for them. With the information set out as I intend to set it out I think most people will decide that non noble kava is not for them due it's strong medicinal qualities and lack of the more pleasurable recreational effects. These kavas are out there even with the Van ban because Isa exists in other places. More good quality information well laid out can only be good. At the moment there is a mystique and aura around non noble kavas. Most people here believe they are inherently bad based on what they've been told. Let's get some truth out there that these kavas are absolutely fine to drink in moderation and/or if you have medical conditions that would benefit from them such as chronic pain and not let rumours, innueundo and scare stories dominate the debate.
recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
@Edward, Thank you for the review!!!
On the other hand, I can't imagine that every caution against "hangover" is unwarranted or disingenuous. If that were the case, the word "Tudei" = "two day" kava, would never have been coined, right?
All of this suggests that true proper labeling for non-nobles might require a labeling it by the specific cultivars contained in the blends/batch.
On the other hand, I can't imagine that every caution against "hangover" is unwarranted or disingenuous. If that were the case, the word "Tudei" = "two day" kava, would never have been coined, right?
The thing is that yes, if you drink a lot of it then you are going to get next day effects and quite possibly negative next day effects in large quantities. If you knowingly are drinking tudei kava and you limit your intake like I did the last few nights then you are not going to feel bad the next morning. We shouldn't get the two debates mixed up between making sure noble kava is definitely noble and knowingly drinking tudei.