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Kava Enthusiast
You stayed with 2 tbs total, right? In one liter? Do you ever mix noble kavas at that ratio (for comparison)?
I did but I drank the shells pretty fast so I got it in pretty quick. I do sometimes only use a couple of tablespoons of some of the stronger nobles especially if I'm short of time but then I will use less water.You stayed with 2 tbs total, right? In one liter? Do you ever mix noble kavas at that ratio (for comparison)?
Let us know how that one makes you feel afterwards too, I'm intrigued.PNG Isa tonight, immediately nicer.
Second shell in and I'm feeling just fine. These are both very relaxing kavas, you get a big hit of body feeling and then it just stays with you. I can't say that this gives you the best kava experience I've ever had but I can certainly see that it has it's uses. For pain and/or insomnia this will definitely do the trick. I can't imagine I will feel too bad in the morning, you'd have to overdo it to get much more than a nice morning afterglow. I'll be sure to update.Let us know how that one makes you feel afterwards too, I'm intrigued.
Did you just make 2 tbs again? Is it a clear-headed relaxed chilled-out thing or a lethargic just wanna close your eyes thing, can't even stand the sound of music kinda thing?Second shell in and I'm feeling just fine. These are both very relaxing kavas, you get a big hit of body feeling and then it just stays with you. I can't say that this gives you the best kava experience I've ever had but I can certainly see that it has it's uses. For pain and/or insomnia this will definitely do the trick. I can't imagine I will feel too bad in the morning, you'd have to overdo it to get much more than a nice morning afterglow. I'll be sure to update.
I agree. The side effect from kava I hate most is residual muscle relaxation; specifically cause it makes me not want to exercise.Here's my take on the tudei controversy: Go ahead and try it if you like. But unless you are taking it to fight cancer, the high flavokawain levels might discourage you from making tudeis a regular choice. I have had tudei like effects from supposedly noble kavas too. But I personally wouldn't want to drink a kava cultivar or blend that had more than 20% DHM. After a few days, you really want to avoid exercise when you drinking that stuff a lot. Your muscles just don't want to do anything, and you get up slower in the morning. I even went through a year of preferring high DHK kavas, but now I'm back to wanting more balanced or slightly heady kavas more.
I used 3 and it's a stronger kava than the tudei so I had a stronger effect last night. I drank it a bit later in the evening as well so I've got more of an afterglow this morning but nothing unpleasant and nothing that I wouldn't get with a stronger heavy noble. You do still feel clear headed, the best way I can describe it is like drinking a strong noble kava like stone, supreme or hiwa but only getting the heavy aspects of it, no initial euphoria or feelgood, just immediate body numbing and a creeping sedation. I wouldn't describe it in any way as unpleasurable, not on the night of drinking or the next day. I'm sure if you overdid it all you'd feel is a bit wiped out the next day. It's not something that you would want to drink every day. If I had chronic pain and/or insomnia this would be a godsend. As it is this is the type of thing that I would want to drink a few times a month on the weekend.Did you just make 2 tbs again? Is it a clear-headed relaxed chilled-out thing or a lethargic just wanna close your eyes thing, can't even stand the sound of music kinda thing?
I get what you're saying and yes, this type of kava will give you that effect but of course some people would like that effect too.I agree. The side effect from kava I hate most is residual muscle relaxation; specifically cause it makes me not want to exercise.
I've said a bit about this in the post above but I don't think anybody would suggest drinking tudei on a daily basis. It has specific uses like pain or insomnia but beyond that noble kavas are actually more pleasurable. I'm not aware of any solid evidence so far that high FKB levels are harmful to you in any way and also if you drink the Isa the FKB levels are actually only a fraction above most nobles. Considering that you are going to be consuming less Isa to get an effect you're actually going to be consuming less FKB!Here's my take on the tudei controversy: Go ahead and try it if you like. But unless you are taking it to fight cancer, the high flavokawain levels might discourage you from making tudeis a regular choice. I have had tudei like effects from supposedly noble kavas too. But I personally wouldn't want to drink a kava cultivar or blend that had more than 20% DHM. After a few days, you really want to avoid exercise when you drinking that stuff a lot. Your muscles just don't want to do anything, and you get up slower in the morning. I even went through a year of preferring high DHK kavas, but now I'm back to wanting more balanced or slightly heady kavas more.
This seems to be what's confusing so many people. It's the reason I try to ask users (especially newer ones) what specific effects they felt when they declare a product to be tudei. For me the signature has always been heavier sedation/mind&muscle relaxation lasting for most of the next day, when I wasn't expecting it. It's been a while since I've had one strong enough but like you said, even strong and heavy nobles can give you the afterglow and make it a bit tough to get up early in the morning and keep you dragging for a bit until it completely wears off.Now I've tried both of these kavas I'm starting to question just what "tudei like effects" actually means.
A lot of the problem is the anti tudei bias of certain factions spreading misinformation about it. I'm as guilty as anyone else of believing what I first read about tudei and it's effects. Now I've tried it I know that's complete nonsense and I won't go into the motives behind why certain people have been spreading this misinformation. At the end of the day tudei/isa has it's place in your stash if you want something to heavily decrease pain and give you a good sleep when noble kava won't quite do the job.This seems to be what's confusing so many people. It's the reason I try to ask users (especially newer ones) what specific effects they felt when they declare a product to be tudei. For me the signature has always been heavier sedation/mind&muscle relaxation lasting for most of the next day, when I wasn't expecting it. It's been a while since I've had one strong enough but like you said, even strong and heavy nobles can give you the afterglow and make it a bit tough to get up early in the morning and keep you dragging for a bit until it completely wears off.
I personally think tudei/isa are best when paired with an appropriately potent noble. For me the DHM and deep, relaxful sleep is the perfect way to finish off the more buzzy kavain effects. Maybe it's because of my experiences early on or my desire to end the day with a strong relaxant... Of course testing and labeling is critical so that you can dose them correctly or use one or the other depending on the situation.
I can understand the logic of noble being the latest progression. High kavain is much more recreational and I can see it being very desirable for a society that had no access to alcohol or similar psychoactive substances. I think most of us that want to retain access to the higher quality non nobles are using kava as a medicinal substance. If all I wanted was a social alternative to alcohol, high kavain and low DHM would be fine. I'm also sure that some non nobles are better/worse than others. Obviously nobles, with their shorter activity duration would be more forgiving if the dose is too high or the cultivar has effects that aren't desired.Anyway, as noted elsewhere, tudei is simply the earlier version of kava. The beta version, so to speak. All evidence suggests that cultivar selection that took place after domestication moved away from dhm/fkb heavy kava towards kavain or met heavy kava. Judging by the limited evidemce concerning the spread of kava one could venture to say that tudei was nearly completely replaced by noble in consumption and rituals at least 1200 years ago (but likely even much earlier). It was still growing in limited quantities in Vanuatu, but it is hard to tell if this was for its use in local magic, medicine (probably the same thing), as an insurance policy or for some other use. But I doubt think anyone can claim it is a desirable group of cultivars for daily recreational or even socio cultural drinking.
There is definitely that element in these early days of our experience of kava culture. That's why I would never joke about rubbing dry medium grind in your eyeballs, someone would do it. I do believe every other orifice has been postulated at one time or another.Well, this used to be done, but the result was the opposite of what was ostensibly intended. Every time a vendor wrote "this kava is for experienced users only", newbies thought it was extra good and strong. Well, there were also vendors who claimed tudei was "elite kava", which obviously attracted even more consumers..
I seem to remember you telling me about it. That was sold to you as noble so it's likely you drank a fair amount of it. I'm not saying that kava being sold as noble when it's not isn't a problem any more but we're talking here about drinking specific kavas that are known to be tudei or isa, going in with your eyes open and judging the effects for yourself.I am not going to name the vendor who sold that batch of X kava a couple of years ago. They don't sell it now and there's no point in bringing up their past mistakes when these days they sell nothing but good kava. But those who have been around th KF for a few years probably know which kavas I am referring to.
Your personal experience with a couple of spoons of tudei is valuable, but I don't think it can necessarily negate expert opinions built on the basis of long term observations and field investigations. Besides, as you say, some tudeis are not *much* worse than nobles when it comes to their chemical composition. The mildest (isa) indeed has "only" twice as much fkb as the noble cultivar with the highest fkb concentration (not sure if that's entirely insigificant but i guess it's relatively mild in comparison with other tudeis that can have 20-30 times more fkb) The problem is that the vast majority of studied and examined tudie cultivars are indeed much worse when it comes to their higher potential of causing nausea, hangover etc.
As for your statement re individuals' decisions. I partly agree. People should be able to decide what they want to put inside their own bodies. However, at the same time I think it's not unreasonable for kava enthusiasts to provide eudcation on the difference between noble and non-noble kava. Likewise, I don't think it is wrong for the government of Vanuatu (and other nations) to esablish and eforce their own export standards. In New Zealand the government controls the quality of food exports to make sure that the entire industry does not get blacklisted due to one dodgy exporter of low quality kiwifruit, honey, wine etc. You could argue that it is up to the individuals in England if they want to buy fake manuka honey or poor quality wool, kiwifruit or whatever. But sadly (?) the world doesn't work this way. Most countries are more than happy to ban imports of entire groups of produce on the basis of a small number of inconsistencies. Likewise, the public perception of different counties' "brands" is often shaped by bad actors and dodgy batches, hence the perceived need for regulatory intervention.
In any case, the problem is never people like yourself (i.e. experienced kava drinkers making an informed decision), but a legion of newbies who may be tricked into buying a potentially inferior product unsuitable for ordinary, recreational consumption + the whole extract manufacturing industry that may be keen to use the cheaper cultivars to make products aimed at even less informed customers.
Labelling is important though. I'm saying there is nothing wrong with tudei/isa if it's honestly labelled and you can make an informed choice and moderate your dose.
...Now I've tried it I know that's complete nonsense...
All classic scholarly publications mentioning tudei state that is significantly more likely to cause nausea and next day hangovers than noble kava. I think this statement is not controversial. Sure, someone might claim they got the shits from some noble but felt fine after tudei, but anecdotal evidence aside from the pharmacological and ethnobotanical points of view this statement is sound. ...
All of this suggests that true proper labeling for non-nobles might require a labeling it by the specific cultivars contained in the blends/batch.I would also remind people that tudei is a very large group pf cultivars. Sone might seem mild, others can...
The thing is that yes, if you drink a lot of it then you are going to get next day effects and quite possibly negative next day effects in large quantities. If you knowingly are drinking tudei kava and you limit your intake like I did the last few nights then you are not going to feel bad the next morning. We shouldn't get the two debates mixed up between making sure noble kava is definitely noble and knowingly drinking tudei.On the other hand, I can't imagine that every caution against "hangover" is unwarranted or disingenuous. If that were the case, the word "Tudei" = "two day" kava, would never have been coined, right?