Front Page of the Vanuatu Daily Post - The End of Kava Exports?

[Deleted User01]

Hey, every time this thread starts up, someone mentions Koniak. It is embedded in this thread. So start a new thread and focus on Vanuatu and why they ban export of certain Kavas. And make a rule that nobody can say the K word or mention any other Kava sold by any other vendor in this particular thread. Then make sure every Newbie gets a PDF file thrown into their inbox (the short version please) that describes Tudie and why it is not desireable. Might as well have a few sentences on the Liver and Dermopathy while you are at it. And or course a few sentences on responsible drinking and why Kava is a crappy substitute for Pot (if that is what they are looking for). Then let's talk about else. I promise you, the more we talk Tudie, the more negative feedback gets out into the outside world.

So full disclosure, I had a St. Paddys day hangover on Tuesday and that's why I hit the Koniak. Today I'm in timeout, no Kava and no Alcohol. Can you imagine!

 

[HeadHodge]

It looks like our new task is getting a wiki going about safety.

I got one started. It's extremely light on content, but it's there for us to edit. Kava Safety

 

[HeadHodge]

Hey, every time this thread starts up, someone mentions Koniak.

I think there may be some confusion about what being talked about. When Koniak is mentioned I believe everyone is thinking of BHK's Koniak. But I believe I read somewhere a post from Judd himself that he used the name Koniak for his product because "it sounded cool" and is not necessarily representative of the Koniak cultivar itself. I could be wrong but that's my understanding. If that's true, then we should be careful to specify which Koniak were are actually referring to.

 

[HeadHodge]

So full disclosure, I had a St. Paddys day hangover on Tuesday and that's why I hit the Koniak.

Same here. I broke down and went on a two day St. Paddy day binge. It's spring break here and party time on the beach. I happily went back to the Kava yesterday (no alcohol) and back on track.

 

[kavadude]

Koniak isn't a specific strain. It's a PNG pidgin term for kava ("waeld koniak" aka "wild cognac").

 

[HeadHodge]

Koniak isn't a specific strain. It's a PNG pidgin term for kava ("waeld koniak" aka "wild cognac").

Thanks for the correction, I'm still trying to get my terminology down. I'm always mixing product names with locations and strains.

Aside from my ignorant sentences, hopefully you get my meaning. (If not, you need to learn HeadHodgeIsm. It's a mixture of Bislama, pidgin, and latin )

 

[Bula Kava House]

Koniak isn't a specific strain. It's a PNG pidgin term for kava ("waeld koniak" aka "wild cognac").

Correct. We sell a PNG kava and chose to call it Koniak because that's what the locals call kava. For what it's worth, the locals drink the specific strain I sell daily.

 

[HeadHodge]

Koniak isn't a specific strain. It's a PNG pidgin term for kava ("waeld koniak" aka "wild cognac").

On second thought maybe he meant that he called it Koniak because it was a better name than "Wild Cognac". I've been looking all over but can't find the post I'm referring to.

Edit: Judd beat me to it.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

While I agree talking about it may bring more negative attention to the subject, in general, or even help create a mystique around it (for some people). I don't think being silent on the subject helps anything either. Fact based information combined with education should be the best way to go forward. If I stop discussing my bills, they don't go away. Choosing to turn a blind eye would only force us to have to live with the consequences when they suddenly arise. Instead of taking the data and trying to enact a proactive solution to what is likely to come.
I know we always hate it when the government steps in and tells us what we can & can not put in our bodies. But in this case I'll gladly sacrifice Tudei kava if it means we'll be more likely to keep Kava in general. Clearly Tudei and similar could be fine for occasional use, just like the natives use it. But the bulk of the people who would buy kava here, would not be as knowledgeable and careful as most of us on the forum. If they don't have the knowledge, they're more likely to misuse the plant and Tudei just happens to be the least forgiving in the 'misuse' department. Also, often times people view 'natural herbs' as being 'weak' and nothing to worry about, not giving a second thought to possible interactions or dosages. This could also lead to trouble, whether it's done out of complete carelessness or an innocent lack of information. Either way, the result would likely be the same. The governent would just end up banning all kava rather than waste any time or money getting into specifics, as mentioned early. So, even though all of us could technically walk outside and poison ourselves with plants in our neighborhood, drink gasoline and raid, take a handful of tylenol, eat double bacon cheeseburgers for breakfast, lunch and dinner everday, or even drink too much water...I think we should just let this one go without any fuss. If Tudei is our weakest link, I'd rather take it out of the hands of the masses sooner than later, before it ends up causing a problem we can't take back.
It's the impure backwoods moonshine of kavas, not good in the wrong hands and not what we want our community to be judged on.

 

[CanAwa]

What's this tudai everyone is talking about ? Just kidding

 

[Deleted User01]

Shakas, I agree with most of what you say. I do not agree with taking anything anyway from the masses because then we are no better than the Educated Elite in Washington who think they know what is good for us. I just think this Thread has beaten the Tudie horse to death. The Kava Safety thing that HeadHodge is working on is very good. Publish factual information but keep the hysteria and demonization to a minimum. For a minute there I thought I was watching "Reefer Madness". In my opinion, this thread started on negative footing and we (the members) fanned the flames. Don't get me started on that one because I'm definitely opinionated on what happened here and I'll leave it at that. From what I have seen on the forum, the new members are very smart and we just need to get them the bare facts ASAP. They are more than capable of making good decisions. This forum is growing at a nice steady pace. Word is getting out but I'm in no hurry to try to educate the world ... just those that join the family. We can build our case one member at a time.

 

[brett123]

glad they didn't take vodka and spirits away because of misuse and limit everybody to 3% beer pathetic from what i understand tudai is maybe 4x strengh of my old favorite qkp 2.5 kavatones vs 9- 11 with that in mind ill drink
slowly if i ever find a strong kava
the problem the way i see it is nothing in large or stong quantities or both is great for you (fast food, alcohol, sugar sweets chocolate caffine peps have been ovedosing on caffine drinks and pills and even died quick ban strong coffee) i would argue more problems could be caused arguing that anything is good (nobel) so drink up im sure at one point and possibly even still in some countries in the world tobacco is sold on its many health benefits
and personally i dont like to see kava of any type compared to pot
my own personal opinions on some drugs
bad never want to use = tobacco smoked ,pot smoked based on my opinion lungs like fresh air only
caffeine its a terrible drug im addicted but 3 days no caffeine better dreams can wake up naturally in 5 mins rather than after my third coffee this makes my bad list because of its wide acceptance by sheeple who look shocked when its pointed out to be a drug
mac donalds (fast food in general)
moderation = alcohol , kava, sugar
http://www.trinity.edu/jdunn/spiderdrugs.htm the link shows the effects of several drugs on spiders webs clearly caffine is the worst or very bad

 

[infraredz]

Like I said in another thread to clarify, right now what matters is the presence of FKB and not the chemotype. Everything Chris said is true but I think it's important to make sure the discussion is very clear.

FKB can be detected with HPTLC tests and possibly even more rudimentary paper chromatography tests. Since FKB is the cytotoxic compound, that is what we should be worried about. @shakas brings up a good point about a correlation between the double bonded lactones and FKB and I can see possible mechanisms behind the correlation (but it's just a complicated theory and not worth talking about). That being said, those kavas that are high in DHM and DHK have given a yellow supernatant in solvent which is consistent with noble kava so the presence of DHM and DHK seems to have a correlation to tudei, but not the other way around.

I think the important thing is independent, blind or double-blind testing because I'm sure that simple paper chromatography tests can be arranged to test for the detection of FKB. Until then, like Kapm said, we need to require that our vendors get their kava tested and allow the results to be available just as nutritional facts of fast food are.

 

[brett123]

Like I said in another thread to clarify, right now what matters is the presence of FKB and not the chemotype. Everything Chris said is true but I think it's important to make sure the discussion is very clear.

FKB can be detected with HPTLC tests and possibly even more rudimentary paper chromatography tests. Since FKB is the cytotoxic compound, that is what we should be worried about. @shakas brings up a good point about a correlation between the double bonded lactones and FKB and I can see possible mechanisms behind the correlation (but it's just a complicated theory and not worth talking about). That being said, those kavas that are high in DHM and DHK have given a yellow supernatant in solvent which is consistent with noble kava so the presence of DHM and DHK seems to have a correlation to tudei, but not the other way around.

I think the important thing is independent, blind or double-blind testing because I'm sure that simple paper chromatography tests can be arranged to test for the detection of FKB. Until then, like Kapm said, we need to require that our vendors get their kava tested and allow the results to be available just as nutritional facts of fast food are.

FKB, a novel chalcone isolated from kava root extracts, showed a strong in vitro activity against osteosarcoma cell lines. This compound inhibited cell proliferation, induced apoptosis and cell cycle arrest. Furthermore, the treatment with FKB, in contrast to conventional chemotherapeutic drugs, showed less toxicity in normal bone marrow cells. This implies that FKB may be used as a chemopreventive agent with respect to inhibition of tumor growth, motility and invasion. These preliminary data of FKB treatment on osteosarcoma cells suggest it may enhance the treatment of osteosarcoma.

 

[HeadHodge]

I think the important thing is independent, blind or double-blind testing because I'm sure that simple paper chromatography tests can be arranged to test for the detection of FKB. Until then, like Kapm said, we need to require that our vendors get their kava tested and allow the results to be available just as nutritional facts of fast food are.

Well said @infraredz!!! Now if we can figure a way to make that happen?

 

[Deleted User01]

Until then, like Kapm said, we need to require that our vendors get their kava tested and allow the results to be available just as nutritional facts of fast food are.

Sighhh, if only they would test their Kava but that goes under the heading of "That's another thing that is never going to happen". They would have to test every batch they buy because you never know what might be in the next load from your Grower/Supplier. If somebody came up with a cheap testing mechanism it might happen. I think someone told us it was at least 185 a pop. What blew my mind (in Chris's post) is that Solomons comes from an island that only has wild Kava and no history of people drinking it. Now I'm beginning to wonder about it though I don't get Tudie effects. Bottom line, if you are worried about bad Kava then only buy the Kavas labeled as Noble and especially from islands that have a long history of drinking it with no ill effect. That would make Solomons and the PNG Kavas odd man out. But I'm still finishing mine, I have both in stock.

P.S. When you buy Kava pay attention to the origin. I was taken back when I read that one (or even two) of Kavasseurs Favorite Kavas are both PNG. I don't what to mention any names and start the Madness again but everyone should check the origin of the Kava before they buy.

 

[HeadHodge]

....They would have to test every batch they buy because you never know what might be in the next load from your Grower/Supplier.....

That's exactly why I think the onus for testing should be placed on the grower/supplier. And the onus to distribute only products that have been properly tested on the reputable vendors.

 

[Deleted User01]

Headhodge. Ask Chris if that is feasible for the Grower. You need to touch base with him anyway to see if he can send you his technical posts for the Library. With any luck, he will read this post and reply.

 

[infraredz]

Well we know that at least in Vanuatu (and in theory), only noble kava is allowed for export. That, coupled with the capabilities of the Dpt of Ag that Dr. Lebot works at, would seem to show that all exported kava must be "approved" after testing.

Just so everyone has easy access, here is the "Kava Act of 2002" which is a piece of legislation in Vanuatu.

It seems to me that the testing could be much cheaper than the current tests (which I have no idea about) if they are only testing for the presence of one compound. I would imagine that getting a chemotype tested would be more costly than simply testing for the presence of FKB. Again, I don't know the methodology of the "tests" that vendors refer to but I'm guessing it could be a LC/MS because that price is similar to ones I've seen for GC/MS testing by commercial labs. The only analyte that should be tested for it seems would be FKB. I'd be curious to see if a simple paper chromatography test could show the presence or absence of FKB if indeed it is related to pigmentation or chalconoids that undergo conjugate ring closures and result in flavonoids... Just thinking out loud.

It shouldn't be that hard, really. Also, what is the price to pay for ensuring the safety of our beloved plant? Surely vendors can spare 185 (or less) to ensure that it is kept legal and that their customers are consuming safe kava.

 

[Deleted User01]

It shouldn't be that hard, really. Also, what is the price to pay for ensuring the safety of our beloved plant? Surely vendors can spare 185 (or less) to ensure that it is kept legal and that their customers are consuming safe kava.

LOL, I knew somebody would say that. I hope it doesn't give them an excuse to up the price. You know the consumer always subsidizes anything like that. I guess I wouldn't mind paying an extra buck or 2 to know what I'm putting in my system. I would imagine a vendor or 2 should be responding to this soon. Wait for it .......