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A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

verticity

I'm interested in things
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For the meantime, we should ignore TK certification. If not all vendors can get tests done, then none should claim TK certification. It totally skews the market and gives certain vendors - all of whom I like, by the way - an advantage.
I disagree. TK certification means something. We should not ignore it. There are other ways of getting kava tested: join the aforementioned American Kava Association, for example.

You seem to be confusing True Kava with a government regulatory agency or something. That's not what it is. It is a small private organization. Garry has done a lot of work with his certified vendors to maintain high standards, so the seal is meaningful, but it is not legally binding. You are free to ignore it. I will continue to pay attention to it.
 

kasa_balavu

Yaqona Dina
@kasa_balavu I understand your point, but let me explain how I see this situation. Please note that this is my personal perspective and I do not claim to be speaking on behalf of Garry or anyone else linked to TK.

When Garry started doing his testing there was no such thing as a separate TK project. It was all part of the forums. A concerned member who invested his time and money to test kava regularly consumed by other members of the forum while constatly consulting with other members and working with them together to develop testing standards etc. It was in a way a child of the forum. As the project was progressing Garry kept calling for help/assistance and kept encouraging people to join his efforts. But the idea wasn't to develop Garry's "business", but simply to advance the concept of a consumers' "watchdog". Or actually to force vendors to demand higher quality, to test their products, etc. At some point Garry (and many others) actually wanted the forum to become sort of fused together with True Kava project and to not only discuss kava, but also to monitor its quality and promote safe, responsible use. This idea was seen as too extreme by the forum's owner who wanted this platform to remain more fun or open, so to speak.
It was at this point that TK became more of a separate body, but still closely linked to all our discussions here. On the one hand TK started doing their own certificates, but on the other hand it kept spreading the simple message that vendors should consider testing all their batches and that they should aim to guarantee noble.

TK has never claimed to be the only authority on good kava, but it has presented a solid case for trusting the vendors that followed its guidelines and recommendations. Consumers started recognising the value of TK's process and more and more people became interested in getting "certified". At some point TK received requests from big wholesalers in places like Vanuatu. From what I understand, TK decided it had no means of ensuring that all the stuff that wholesalers in Vanuatu send to their retailers around the globe is 100% noble as they themselves admit that they source their kava from hundreds of small suppliers, so it chose not to try to certify them. This might be unfair, but not unreasonable. If you were to be a kava farmer who wanted to simply export his own product, then I think TK could have considered certifying these products. But if you were one of the many big traders who send hundreds of kgs of kava from hundreds of farms to hundreds of places around the globe and you were totally unknown to TK then it's arguably more difficult to be confident about vouching for your products. In any case, the point of TK is not to be the "monopoly" on kava standard, but to encourage testing, reliability and consistency. So I am sure that the vast majority of people who trust TK would also trust a vendor who would be keen to guarantee 100% purity, nobility (or money back) and who would test each batch of his/her kava. But the reality is that there are few such vendors. Some vendors might not be able to meet these requirements. Others seem to have a different business plan ( I will send you a PM about one such example that you might be familiar with).

Anyway, the TK was growing slowly, but more recently Garry has been forced to dedicate his attention to other, more pressing issues and priorities and hasn't been able to dedicate as much attention to TK testing or certifying new vendors. He has kept calling for assistance/encouraging people to do their own testing, but nobody seems to be interested/capable of helping him with this project. Those who might have the resources and incentive to advance the project recognize that they also often might be seen as having a conflict of interest, so they simply cannot get more involved.

That's my take on TK. I wish it had become an integral element of this forum with more members actively participating in this project and advancing the concept of a big "kava consumer watchdog". But obviously this platform's owner has a right to do anything he likes with his forum and I respect it (and remain grateful for his service to the big kava community).
Thanks for providing historical context. I was aware of some of it, but it's always good to hear more and be reminded of how we got to where we are.
It's a pity that True Kava has a bus factor of one. I'll contact @Deleted User directly with my questions.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
Yes, true, that is TK's policy. TK and BKH are not exactly friendly because BKH was selling Koniak without telling people it was tudei. BKH gets their testing done by the AKA, they don't need, and probably don't want, TK's certification.
See. This is a real problem. It's passive aggressive and needs to stop. It's totally immature. BKH can sell whatever they want. I'm not sure that Judd ever claimed Koniak was Noble. If he did, he doesn't anymore. This is the definition of a witch hunt.
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
See. This is a real problem. It's passive aggressive and needs to stop. It's totally immature. BKH can sell whatever they want. I'm not sure that Judd ever claimed Koniak was Noble. If he did, he doesn't anymore. This is the definition of a witch hunt.
Not passive aggressive, they were both plainly aggressive with each other. Judd absolutely claimed that Koniak felt noble and therefor was noble, he also claimed 'the chemotype looks noble' as a defense and that Koniak was simply a proprietary name and not related to the government issued COA's going around that showed a kava called Koniak being marked as tudei. He may have conceded since then or perhaps has just let it be what it is. Not sure.
 
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Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
I am still not understanding why can't the decision as to whether a consumer wants to buy noble or tudei be left to the person spending their money. The people discussing for the ban of tudei are the very same people that had their kava tested by TK. I haven't heard any other vendor pop in here and say "yeah If it doesn't have the TK seal, it shouldn't be trusted".

If if the point is to control the market by those who had their kava tested by TK, well then it makes perfect sense that these same vendors are arguing for TK or nothing. It seems the majority (not all) of other consumers are fine with tudei, assuming it is labeled as such. It doesn't mean we are going to run out and stock up on tudei, but speaking for myself only, the more I see this pettiness, the less I will support those vendors.
 

Kalm with Kava

Kava Vendor
See. This is a real problem. It's passive aggressive and needs to stop. It's totally immature. BKH can sell whatever they want. I'm not sure that Judd ever claimed Koniak was Noble. If he did, he doesn't anymore. This is the definition of a witch hunt.
This was not a problem at all. BKH or any other vendor is still free to sell whatever they desire. This was the merely the solution to explain why some people would feel like garbage the next day after drinking kava, the definition of transparency, by listing every sample sent in (usually 3rd party customers) and it's composition.
Anyone is completely free to set up the Tudei Kava Group to advocate for it's usage. I'm not sure you'll get Lebot or many other scientists backing it though.
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
I am still not understanding why can't the decision as to whether a consumer wants to buy noble or tudei be left to the person spending their money. The people discussing for the ban of tudei are the very same people that had their kava tested by TK. I haven't heard any other vendor pop in here and say "yeah If it doesn't have the TK seal, it shouldn't be trusted".

If if the point is to control the market by those who had their kava tested by TK, well then it makes perfect sense that these same vendors are arguing for TK or nothing. It seems the majority (not all) of other consumers are fine with tudei, assuming it is labeled as such. It doesn't mean we are going to run out and stock up on tudei, but speaking for myself only, the more I see this pettiness, the less I will support those vendors.
You'll never hear a TK vendor say a non-TK vendor shouldn't be trusted because they're not a member, and you never should. I'll be the first to say @Kavafied has some really good root, and they're not TK certified. The TK seal is only a guarantee that the kava you're drinking has been tested, and is considered scientifically noble -- nothing more, nothing less. It's merely another point to use in your decision making about which kava to buy next.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
You'll never hear a TK vendor say a non-TK vendor shouldn't be trusted because they're not a member, and you never should. I'll be the first to say @Kavafied has some really good root, and they're not TK certified. The TK seal is only a guarantee that the kava you're drinking has been tested, and is considered scientifically noble -- nothing more, nothing less. It's merely another point to use in your decision making about which kava to buy next.
That makes sense, then why is someone choosing to buy tudei such a big deal for you guys? There are no hard scientific data backing the use of it as a health risk, all the negative side effects, can happen drinking both types of kavas.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I'd like to add here a very important point. And a suggestion.

Right now, only four Kava vendors are TK certified, and Gary is not testing vendors who want certification because of personal issues (which is totally understandable).

For the meantime, we should ignore TK certification. If not all vendors can get tests done, then none should claim TK certification. It totally skews the market and gives certain vendors - all of whom I like, by the way - an advantage.
But as I said in a previous post TK certification isn't a decision shifter in my kava buying these days. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who buy kava based on what they've heard about it rather than whether it is tested noble or not. I'm guessing a lot do their own acetone testing and/or go by trial and error by drinking the stuff. Either way with 4 vendors tested and guaranteed noble it leaves a lot of really good vendors who do actually sell noble kava off the list if you are inclined to only buy kava that has been tested noble by TK. I just don't think this is a big deal right now. I do truly believe that TK and the discussions we've been having around it has led to the happy situation we are in now where we can order from a huge range of vendors, some of them relatively new, and be almost completely confident that the kava you are buying is noble. The message is really getting through to all vendors if not further down the supply chain that the vast majority of people want noble only or at least to have the choice of knowing what they are drinking if it is tudei and making a conscious decision to drink it. I'm inclined to think this whole thing is less of a problem than you think.
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
That makes sense, then why is someone choosing to buy tudei such a big deal for you guys? There are no hard scientific data backing the use of it as a health risk, all the negative side effects, can happen drinking both types of kavas.
When I first started drinking kava, I didn't know the difference, bought tudei, and it wrecked my body for a day or so. I don't want anyone to experience that sort of pain, which is why I only source noble kava. The primary difference between noble and tudei is that you're bound to feel terrible after drinking tudei nearly every time, whereas you'll only feel that way with noble kavas if you drink a ridiculous amount.

One other benefit of having your kava tested, is that Garry tests for chlorophyl to ensure you're not getting leaves/stems (liver issues galore), and he also tests for mold/other contaminants. This is a very good thing :)

edit: I forgot to add that it's a big deal to us, because we don't want any government agencies grouping up the effects of tudei with noble kava. If all consumers tried tudei, A) They wouldn't buy anymore kava and B) The FDA would create rules to stop kava from being sold. We all want the FDA to keep their hands off of kava. However, the answers as to how we accomplish that vary.
 
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Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
In a perfect world I think it would be awesome if all kavas from all vendors were all tested on a regular basis using the same methods by the same lab. That way you would know which vendors are consistently noble, which ones sell tudei but it is marked as such and any noble kavas they sell are pure noble, or the ones that in London would be called "messers" who sell any sort of kava just to make a buck.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
That makes sense, then why is someone choosing to buy tudei such a big deal for you guys? There are no hard scientific data backing the use of it as a health risk, all the negative side effects, can happen drinking both types of kavas.
I don't mind vendors selling tudei if they label it as tudei and explain that it has a higher risk of adverse reactions. I think that vendors who sell tudei as "specialty", "premium", "truly elite kava" for "real kava connoisseurs" are dishonest even when they do not claim that their kava is noble. Just my personal opinion though.

Regarding discouraging people from choosing tudei: I run a big kava circle (lots of members, many newbies etc). A few years ago we didn't know about tudei spiking etc but we did notice that some kavas made many people sick or very lethargic. One time we got that infamous tudei/wild kava labelled as "strong noble" by one of the biggest vendors. It made most of us ill. One guy got so ill from it (vomiting for hours and hours, considered going to hospital) that he refuses to come to any more kava sessions because the memory of that experience is so bad. A few people were OK, but it was nobody liked that experience. We now only drink 100% noble kava and while some newbies sometimes get a bit nausea from too much root nobody ever gets sick or gets any of those hangovers. But tudei has turned many people against drinking any kava. Some people were simply unlucky to come to our sessions when all we had was root that turned out to be spiked with tudei. I am not claiming that everyone will get sick from drinking tudei, but I am fairly confident that the less common tudei is the more people will enjoy their first kava experience and/or continue their kava adventures.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
When I first started drinking kava, I didn't know the difference, bought tudei, and it wrecked my body for a day or so. I don't want anyone to experience that sort of pain, which is why I only source noble kava. The primary difference between noble and tudei is that you're bound to feel terrible after drinking tudei nearly every time, whereas you'll only feel that way with noble kavas if you drink a ridiculous amount.

One other benefit of having your kava tested, is that Garry tests for chlorophyl to ensure you're not getting leaves/stems (liver issues galore), and he also tests for mold/other contaminants. This is a very good thing :)
I can certainly appreciate that, as you know, I have had most of your kavas (except the Eva) they are excellent! But I said this before on this thread, I have drank "Noble kavas" certified by TK that gave me the same hangover the next day, albeit not as bad.
I believe in educating consumers like you guys do, I know there will be some newcomers that will buy kava thinking tudei, being stronger in nature might be better when in reality it might not be the case.

I think this thread would be a non-issue if ALL kavas were then tested by TK. I understand Gary is busy and has a life and volunteers his time in other areas. Why not pass the torch on, as someone had suggested a few pages ago? There are plenty of scientifically inclined people on this forum.
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
I can certainly appreciate that, as you know, I have had most of your kavas (except the Eva) they are excellent! But I said this before on this thread, I have drank "Noble kavas" certified by TK that gave me the same hangover the next day, albeit not as bad.
I believe in educating consumers like you guys do, I know there will be some newcomers that will buy kava thinking tudei, being stronger in nature might be better when in reality it might not be the case.

I think this thread would be a non-issue if ALL kavas were then tested by TK. I understand Gary is busy and has a life and volunteers his time in other areas. Why not pass the torch on, as someone had suggested a few pages ago? There are plenty of scientifically inclined people on this forum.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Totally.

Unfortunately, buying lab-grade testing equipment, keeping it calibrated, and following scientific process is not a small undertaking. I'm all ears to new solutions, though.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
I think this thread would be a non-issue if ALL kavas were then tested by TK. I understand Gary is busy and has a life and volunteers his time in other areas. Why not pass the torch on, as someone had suggested a few pages ago? There are plenty of scientifically inclined people on this forum.
Garry has been offering to share his experience, knowledge etc and to help anyone keen to carry on the testing mission. So far not a single person has responded to his repeated calls for assistance. If you know anyone who might be keen to help TK, get in touch with Garry, please.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
I agree with you wholeheartedly. Totally.

Unfortunately, buying lab-grade testing equipment, keeping it calibrated, and following scientific process is not a small undertaking. I'm all ears to new solutions, though.
I believe @Palmetto had mentioned having access to similar equipment, I am not 100% certain he can achieve the same results, but my point is we should look for a solution instead of pointing the finger at one another.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
See. This is a real problem. It's passive aggressive and needs to stop. It's totally immature. BKH can sell whatever they want. I'm not sure that Judd ever claimed Koniak was Noble. If he did, he doesn't anymore. This is the definition of a witch hunt.
He did claim it was noble on this forum. Please see the "History of Koniak" post.
His web site never clearly identified it as tudei.
Deleted User has a poor relationship with BKH because of BKH's former shady practice of not clearly labeling tudei, plus the fact that Judd attacked and heckled Deleted User's testing every step of the way. At one point he (Judd) actually glitter bombed Deleted User. Seriously.
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/fan-mail-thank-you.4411/
Judd sent Deleted User an envelope full of glitter, with a message enclosed calling him a "terrible human being".
Who is being immature in this situation?
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
He did claim it was noble on this forum. Please see the "History of Koniak" post.
His web site never clearly identified it as tudei.
Deleted User has a poor relationship with BKH because of BKH's former shady practice of not clearly labeling tudei, plus the fact that Judd attacked and heckled Deleted User's testing every step of the way. At one point he (Judd) actually glitter bombed Deleted User. Seriously.
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/fan-mail-thank-you.4411/
Judd sent Deleted User an envelope full of glitter, with a message enclosed calling him a "terrible human being".
Who is being immature in this situation?
I totally forgot about that. That's hilarious.
I'm not speaking for Judd here, by the way. I don't know about any of that. And I don't really care to hear about it.
I think it's a bit unfair to cite situations like this as fact, and then when it turns out you're wrong, you don't want to hear about it. Seems a bit misleading to those not familiar with these subjects, no?
 
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