Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Want to be a Kava vendor? Want to get in on the action? Well, first you have to get your Kava tested by a completely illegitimate quality control board. Doesn't even sound legal to me.
A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy
- Thread starter Kojo Douglas
- Start date
verticity
I'm interested in things
I'll remind you again: TK is a very small testing and advocacy organization, not a government regulatory agency. You--or anyone--are free to start your own advocacy organization with different standards. You demanding that TK change it's stance on tudei is as ridiculous as me demanding that you wear a top hat in all the video reviews on your web site.
Anyway, you are free to support or not support whatever vendors you want to. You are just one guy.
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verticity
I'm interested in things
Have you even read this thread?
Hey buddy, you need to change your name... the Nether Alderley Yam Network won't stand for this... myself and the other board members of NAYN will be contacting our lawyers, you haven't heard the last of this buster!
This is all getting a bit silly. As I've said several times TK has done a lot to raise everyone's awareness of tudei and I believe improved the situation for those of use who want to drink only noble kavas but there are so many other vendors who are present on this site that are not tested and yet still do good business. I just don't see the problem.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
I've spoken with many, many Kava vendors. I'm not some fringe thinker here. But it does seem that that's the way you want to portray me in this discussion. And that's really sad and unfortunate, because I was part of this scene decades ago when we had real fights to win - against poisonous tinctures that made Kava illegal in Europe. This Tudei scare ("spiking" is a such a ridiculous term that we throw around) is not based in reality.
I'll maintain my position. Encourage proper labeling and award vendors who properly label. But let them handle their own business. And if you are going to start a private certification process, make sure it has some legitimacy. Blacklisting vendors because they have Isa in their store is absurd and probably illegal. if you don't have the depth and capacity to treat all vendors fairly and consistently, don't make absolute statements about vendors.
For the meantime, it'll benefit some of us to look at what an entity needs to do to legally establish quality and certification rights. I believe th USDA has strict requirements for the labeling of "organic" foods, for example.
I'll maintain my position. Encourage proper labeling and award vendors who properly label. But let them handle their own business. And if you are going to start a private certification process, make sure it has some legitimacy. Blacklisting vendors because they have Isa in their store is absurd and probably illegal. if you don't have the depth and capacity to treat all vendors fairly and consistently, don't make absolute statements about vendors.
For the meantime, it'll benefit some of us to look at what an entity needs to do to legally establish quality and certification rights. I believe th USDA has strict requirements for the labeling of "organic" foods, for example.
@Kavasseur can you start using quote and @tagging more so it's easier to know who or what you're replying to please 
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Well, in this case I'm being @mobbed.
Well it's never easy being a free thinker and trail blazer is it? ;-)
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
That's one mighty soapbox you've got there.Great thread, because as they say "All publicity is good publicity".
First, an explanation of my absence, which will no doubt continue for the most part. Since October 2015 both my parents have passed away, I've moved and helped my daughter and sister move, I've spent nearly a month immobile with back issues, and business at my store has nearly tripled. Things are starting to calm down somewhat but I just don't have the time I once did, so I've been concentrating my kava efforts on the big picture, i.e. method validation and Codex submission.
Some points pertinent to this thread:
1. Like it or not, the debate on noble vs two day is closed. All the primary kava producing nations are in agreement, the wheels are in motion, and nothing (including discussions here) is going to change that. If anyone here wants to evangelize for two day, they do it in direct opposition of the kava industry worldwide.
2. True Kava certification is and always has been voluntary. Its popularity even in the light of my extended absence is a testimony to the popularity of the noble cause. TK certification is not a "right", it is in fact it a burden for those who have chosen to comply. And sadly, it has very limited access due to my inability to devote enough time to these efforts. My apologies, but "life happens".
3. TK is not the only kava test lab on the planet. My methods are completely transparent and available to anyone who wants to use them.
4. TK is and always has been completely nonprofit. Though I have accepted donations, I have never charged a single individual or company for any of the thousands of tests I have run. And by the way, donations haven't covered even 10% of the dollars I have invested, not to mention hours of labor. I'm not complaining in the slightest, I just want you to realize that this is NOT a profitable business and never has been.
5. TK is at a crossroads, and there is a major opportunity here for someone who cares about kava drinkers. Considering the interest here and the scores of inquiries from the site, now is the time to take TK to the next level. As vendors are aware, I expected at some point to convert to a "subscription" service, where vendors would pay a flat fee per month for unlimited testing. This would allow for two employees - a "promoter" and a lab tech. No, this isn't a contradiction with point #4, this is a logical progression in a nonprofit entity. If you're honestly interested and have the time, contact me by PM.
I'm sure I've missed something, but these are the major points I have to offer right now.
Garry
Obviously, the debate on Tudei isn't closed.
OPEC is technically a non-profit too. Luckily they have failed in recent years...
TK certification is voluntary, but gives the impression that without it a vendor is somehow only selling "spiked" Kava.
TK is at a crossroads, fair enough. So set up shop in Vanuatu and work with the government there if you think they are so on board with you. Because obviously this Tudei issue isn't coming from Polynesia.
Other labs, yeah. Okay.
I'm sure I'm also forgetting something, like the arrogance to speak as if I was some kind of elected official. I mean, don't you ever get tired of burying the little kids and bullying your detractors?
Boy, I need a shell of Chief's Jungle.
kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
"Organic" is a protected term when applied to food products, yes. There are other special terms, like "Halal", "Free Range", "Kosher".
However, outside of the govt or govt sanctioned certification systems, anyone can create a certification system based on just about anything they want. For example, you are free to create a "True Tudei" certification system that checks for and rejects all noble kava strains or tudei kava adulterated with noble kava.
Or you can choose to certify kava that has been dried by the light of the moon. You would require your vendors to lay their kava out under the light of the full moon for at least 3 hours. Vendors would be free to sign up in order to get the coveted "Moon Dried Kava" certification. (according to legend, the moon turns kava into a potent aphrodisiac on par with rhino horn!).
At the end of the day, the success of such a scheme would depend solely on the interest the market has in the problem your certification system attempts to solve.
Kimmer
Patently irritable
4 certified vendors and we have at least the same number of uncertified vendors that many of us enjoy. I truly don't see the problem.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
I would encourage you to ask those "uncertified vendors" how they feel about four vendors having a monopoly on TK certification.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
If that's the case, what's the point of having TK in the first place? Just to bury smaller vendors and scare vendors like N@H away from our community?
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
The color chart cards, we need the color chart cards!
That would make it simple and fast to do. If we have so many scientists on here then why can't we at least get that done. Make an official Kava Forums test card that shows the darkest yellow noble shade, the range of adulterated kava shades, and we just need one for Tudei orange I suppose. I think having the adulterated shades would help vendors tell suppliers, hey man that is good root mostly so stop throwing that other stuff in it. Or they could at least say hey this is 25% or 50% adulterated.
Anyone could buy them and the money goes in to support Kava Forums operating costs. And since we have TK and non-TK certified vendors on here, which is allowed, that would follow the transparent nature of the Kava Forums itself.
With lighting so hard to control and also just human error reading color, I can just hear it now oh that looks a little too yellow. That has too much orange in the yellow. Then oh boy that would have people grabbing pitchforks, it is adulterated grab the pitch forks quick.
@verticity helped me out with the conversion to be able to weigh the acetone and that really made the testing easier for me. He's sciency! But honestly the lighting issues and human error reading color scares me to be falsely accused of something as a vendor on here. And also finding true tudei is hard to have as a control sample, so a 100 percent Tudei color chart card would work great.
We need Kava Forums Acetone Test Color Chart Cards. You know the transparent kind, that you can see through.
That would make it simple and fast to do. If we have so many scientists on here then why can't we at least get that done. Make an official Kava Forums test card that shows the darkest yellow noble shade, the range of adulterated kava shades, and we just need one for Tudei orange I suppose. I think having the adulterated shades would help vendors tell suppliers, hey man that is good root mostly so stop throwing that other stuff in it. Or they could at least say hey this is 25% or 50% adulterated.
Anyone could buy them and the money goes in to support Kava Forums operating costs. And since we have TK and non-TK certified vendors on here, which is allowed, that would follow the transparent nature of the Kava Forums itself.
With lighting so hard to control and also just human error reading color, I can just hear it now oh that looks a little too yellow. That has too much orange in the yellow. Then oh boy that would have people grabbing pitchforks, it is adulterated grab the pitch forks quick.
@verticity helped me out with the conversion to be able to weigh the acetone and that really made the testing easier for me. He's sciency! But honestly the lighting issues and human error reading color scares me to be falsely accused of something as a vendor on here. And also finding true tudei is hard to have as a control sample, so a 100 percent Tudei color chart card would work great.
We need Kava Forums Acetone Test Color Chart Cards. You know the transparent kind, that you can see through.
D
Deleted User01
I totally agree @Kavasseur, I would much rather drink Tudei Kava than ethanol. However my truck would rather have ethanol. Each to his own.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Post of the decade.
I bet they don't give a shit, they're still probably selling plenty of root. Who even looks at the TK site anymore, it hasn't changed in a year? Also people here are more intelligent than to think that they can only buy good kava from those 4 vendors. I still just think this is a manufactured controversy.
NAMBATU
Kava Enthusiast
There are a lot of accusations going @Deleted User's way that don't seem to make much sense. Unless you have some reason to believe he's getting money under the table from the four approved vendors, why assume bad faith? Why all this talk of a cartel? And the talk of illegality doesn't make any sense either. I can set up an organisation blacklisting and whitelisting who I like, nobody has to listen to me.
Indeed, I support the idea of TK...but haven't purchased a single TK-certified bag of kava all year.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Hey, I never said that. If it looks like the argument is going in that direction then that's someone else's interpretation.
I did say "cartel," yes. Because that's what it looks like to me.
For example, if Deleted User has been out of the system for several months now then how are these vendors still TK certified? That doesn't make any sense. Are they still sitting on the same batches?
I just want to know how this works. Do you test your Kava once and get a lifetime TK license?