Has Reverse Tolerence Been Proven ?? (For Kava)

[keeron]

Hi everyone, Just a quick question.

Has Reverse Tolerence Been Proven when it comes to Kava ?? Is there any medical literature or any small studies ? Does anyone have any info ??
I find it strange that i havent found any studies or medical info on google or any other forums.

Kava, for me did not work for the first 10+ times of me trying it. Ive tried kava on and off for around 4 years, Its taken me around 250grams From Kava By Rex + 30grams Extract & 50 grams Powder of Some random kava on ebay + Kava tincture.
And now another 125grams of Malekula Magic, which ive only just felt the effect of like 3 days ago.

I dont know if its coincidence but ive been taking Cacao, and ive only noticed effects whilst taking Cacao.
But I know for a fact its Kava thats given me effects though, i feel like im Melting in my office chair. Cacao stimulates me, it doesnt make me feel like im melting.

I feel like theres some interaction & synergy between Kava & Cacao. Kava completely removes the effects of stimulation from cacao and sends me into a dream state. I feel like meditating each time after ingesting 2-3 spoons of kava. BTW i just eat my Kava without straining. (Toss & Wash)

I was really about to give up on kava, until 3 days ago, when i noticed i was seriously intoxicated and felt so relaxed, it couldnt of been placebo or Cacao, so i came to the conclusion, Kava definately works, you just have to stick to it and bare it out.

So i guess, Kava has had a Reverse Tolerance effect on me....
But my question remains, Has Reverse Tolerence Been Proven or studied ?
And what are your opinions, when it comes to Reverse Tolerence ? How do you think Kava or the Kavalactones work in your body to produce this reverse tolerance effect ?

 

[Deleted User01]

Reverse tolerance has not been studied or proven. However, here and in the old forum it has been proven to exist and it is cured after 1 to 2 weeks. Some people have to deal with it and others don't. It's still a mystery to me. Some people say that you have to dose your body with Kavalactones to "get it going". Others say it is psychological and you have to listen to the Kava. Still a mystery.

 

[infraredz]

Because we cannot even get conclusive evidence as to the mechanism of action, there is no way in hell we can get any sort of reputable information about reverse tolerance.

I have my own geeky thoughts about it, and am trying to write them down whenever I think of something new but even then, it would only be some guy's hypothesis. It's always been something that's intrigued me though.

 

[kavadude]

64% of census respondents said they did experience it. That said, it could just be a mass belief of ours that sticks around. And I think it is compounded because a lot of people prepare kava incorrectly or use bad kava when they are starting out. But I experienced it myself so I'm not sure what to think. Keep drinking.

 

[infraredz]

Yeah, I think that many people confuse reverse tolerance with.... well, being able to make kava correctly.

They usually don't know how to prepare it correctly, take it on a full stomach, don't use enough, use shitty products, etc.

That being said, I do believe that there could be a real reverse tolerance as it isn't an unheard of phenomenon.

 

[keeron]

Because we cannot even get conclusive evidence as to the mechanism of action, there is no way in hell we can get any sort of reputable information about reverse tolerance.

I have my own geeky thoughts about it, and am trying to write them down whenever I think of something new but even then, it would only be some guy's hypothesis. It's always been something that's intrigued me though.

Ok, well fill me in, whenever you write them down.. Im always interested in hearing other peoples thoughts.
I just find it very strange and intriguing at them same time.
Its crazy how much Kava has been effecting me in the past 3 days.

Ive taken the same batch of the same strain and had Zero effect, yet right now im ''Krunked'' off the same batch i had no effect from.
It could be, because ive just eaten the Kava instead of making a brew. I got fed up of going to the effort of preparing a traditional brew and having to experience the taste of muddy water, just to get Zero effects.

So now i just pour kava in my mouth and let it sit in my mouth for 10mins and then down it with water .. LOL..

 

[keeron]

Yeah, I think that many people confuse reverse tolerance with.... well, being able to make kava correctly.

They usually don't know how to prepare it correctly, take it on a full stomach, don't use enough, use shitty products, etc.
That being said, I do believe that there could be a real reverse tolerance as it isn't an unheard of phenomenon.

Thats true.

The only thing is, ive only experienced effects whilst taking it in the Non-Traditional Way, i just pour kava in my mouth and down with water after letting it sit and absorb through my mouth for 10 mins.

My body might not of been able to absorb enough Kavalactones with the Traditional Method, or its because im taking it sublingually, or unstrained.
Or it could be the Reverse Tolerence effect.

There's so many variants of what it can be.

 

[infraredz]

Yes, "tossing and washing" or "T&W" is going to be much more potent, usually about twice as potent as the same amount you would use for grog.

I don't think I'll ever finish that document by the way, and even if I did, it's all just geekiness and mostly me just asking myself questions.

 

[keeron]

Yes, "tossing and washing" or "T&W" is going to be much more potent, usually about twice as potent as the same amount you would use for grog.

I don't think I'll ever finish that document by the way, and even if I did, it's all just geekiness and mostly me just asking myself questions.

Haha!.. Okay..
And yeah, the T&W must me much more potent . that could be the reason why ive only just experienced the ''Krunked'' feeling 2- 3 days ago.

 

[infraredz]

Thats true.

The only thing is, ive only experienced effects whilst taking it in the Non-Traditional Way, i just pour kava in my mouth and down with water after letting it sit and absorb through my mouth for 10 mins.

My body might not of been able to absorb enough Kavalactones with the Traditional Method, or its because im taking it sublingually, or unstrained.
Or it could be the Reverse Tolerence effect.

There's so many variants of what it can be.

Yes, or you could have not been using enough or preparing it correctly, which isn't uncommon among new members. It's impossible that your body couldn't "absorb the kavalactones" with grog, but be able to do so with consuming the raw root material. Physiologically, that just isn't possible.

 

[kavadude]

I toss and washed myself starting out a fair bit and all it got me was indigestion really. The first time I said "hey this could really work" was when I ate the better part of a large jar of Paradise extract. (I would recommend being patient instead of doing that).

 

[infraredz]

So @keeron , I take it you aren't planning on doing that ethanol extraction anymore right?

 

[keeron]

So @keeron , I take it you aren't planning on doing that ethanol extraction anymore right?

Im undecided. but i may decide to do this method : http://www.kavaforums.com/forum/threads/edible-kava-concentrate.93/
Which looks pretty good. And the main reason for me extracting kava, is so i can take it when im not at home for example on a night out or at parties and gatherings with friends, instead of me drinking alcohol, ive come to hate alcohol.

Kava is far superior to alcohol (imo), i dont like the taste of alcohol or the effects. I dont like the taste of Kava, but i love the effects lol.
To be honest, Im undecided about the extract, i still want to do it, but i just need to work out if it's worth the risk or not.

To be fair, people put way more stress and damage on their liver's everyday, consuming Alcohol, Mcdonalds, Processed Foods and harsh chemicals.
My diet it is : Fruit, Nuts, Chicken, Gluten free bread, Lettuce,Mushrooms & Greens (I'm Sugar Free & Gluten Free). *This is literally all i eat* No Processed foods at all. & No alcohol, unless used for an extract and evaporated. No other drugs or pharma drugs.

So the damage that can happen with Kava, in my opinion is way less risky than your Average American Diet or your Mcdonalds burger or your average Night out at a Night Club or at a Party binge drinking & getting wasted, like alot of people at my age do (23 y.o).

I think if i was to do the extract, i would use it on a weekend, as a recreational tool. And use my normal Toss & wash method for my daily and more medicinal use of kava.

 

[KavaLot]

i used to be able to T&G but over time my body began to revolt over the idea, and rightly so. If you could see your intestinal tract with all its nooks and crannies and then fill er' up with the fine sawdust that comes through with T&W...ouch, it won't be long before the pain will get you or the undesirables of kava set in. Never mind that It's like drinking coffee with grinds in it - no thank you. I would probably try sippin' the prepared kava on ice for longer periods. Better yet throw some of your favourite juice to make it more pleasant. A few nights of that and you should be good to go.

In regard to reverse tolerance. I didn't know what that meant until I was a full fledged kava drinker (6 or 7 day/nights per week). The more times you do it, the less amount you need to feel the good effects...I mean the easier it gets to have those bone chillin' aaaaah moments <gotta find me a hammock> When you first start drinking kava your body doesn't know what to do. <should I stay or should I go now> kind of thing. Once your brain and body settles down, you're in for a treat.....that's what I think reverse tolerance is all about. I'd love to hear from others.


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[infraredz]

If you could see your intestinal tract with all its nooks and crannies and then fill er' up with the fine sawdust that comes through with T&W...ouch, it won't be long before the pain will get you or the undesirables of kava set in.

Just to clear this up so people don't get the wrong idea about this, the small and large intestines contain folds (called "plicae circulares" in the small intestines and "haustra" in the large intestine, if I remember my anatomy correctly).
These are simply there to increase the surface area for absorption since greater surface area translates (mostly) to more efficient absorption.

There's no reason for anyone to be worried about anything getting filled up, blocked or anything, just to clarify.

Especially with more finely ground kava, the amount of saccharides, dietary fiber, sugar, and protein isn't too dissimilar to a lot of foods.

Other than of course, those lovely kavalactones!

 

[keeron]

i used to be able to T&G but over time my body began to revolt over the idea, and rightly so. If you could see your intestinal tract with all its nooks and crannies and then fill er' up with the fine sawdust that comes through with T&W...ouch, it won't be long before the pain will get you or the undesirables of kava set in. Never mind that It's like drinking coffee with grinds in it - no thank you. I would probably try sippin' the prepared kava on ice for longer periods. Better yet throw some of your favourite juice to make it more pleasant. A few nights of that and you should be good to go.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thats true.
However, people put far worse into there intestines.. A McDonalds burger is way worse, than a root of a Natural Plant thats non-toxic in relatively large amounts and part of the Pepper Family.

I take alot of Digestive supps, such as Diatomaceous earth, bentonite clay, turmeric, Oregano oil and others to help with digestion and to help my bowels stay clean.

If im honest, im not worried about Kava, i'd be more worried about consuming 150 pounds of toxic sugar each year like most americans, rather than kava roots.

I think, if i reduce risks in other areas of my life & health i can add risks.. I dont smoke, drink alcohol or eat processed foods and i dont eat white sugar and avoid any food that has white sugar or brown sugar. Im gluten & milk free also.

Kava doesnt worry me, unless its a strain thats proven to be toxic, then im slightly worried.
But if im consuming a safe kava, im not worried at all about eating the roots.
Its funny how many people smoke (cigs), drink alcohol and eat sugar, but Kava is still a grey area, when it comes to health or toxicity.

 

[infraredz]

I think, if i reduce risks in other areas of my life & health i can add risks.. I dont smoke, drink alcohol or eat processed foods and i dont eat white sugar and avoid any food that has white sugar or brown sugar. Im gluten & milk free also.

Kava doesnt worry me, unless its a strain thats proven to be toxic, then im slightly worried.
But if im consuming a safe kava, im not worried at all about eating the roots.

I think we should not be "worried" about "toxic" kava, but rather just inform ourselves. There's no reason for stressing about kava, after all. Just read the research and wealth of information that we have posted here and you will be doing the right thing by informing yourself as a consumer.

I just hate to think that you think kava is somehow adding a risk that is offest by your diet and abstinence of ethanol and cigarettes.

You aren't adding any risks by drinking noble, daily drinking kava. As long as you get your kava from reputable vendors and stay away from tudei/ISA/two-day and solvent extracts, you can be guaranteed that you will be consuming something that only causes dehydration and sometimes, a scaly rash.
You will only be adding to your already wonderful diet and don't drink or smoke, so that's great!

Now, the next possible worry could be like I told you about in the other thread regarding contaminants, but we the AKA offers testing for this and if you really want to make sure you're getting what you are told you're getting, than demand that your vendor get their kava tested by the AKA or the Dpt. Of Agriculture in Vanuatu as a COA. Again, press your vendors but don't get too worried about it since we are, for all intents and purposes, not capable of even finding out this testing unless you can afford lab testing fees which I'm guessing most of us can't or wouldn't want to. However, your vendor certainly can, and if they are a small operation that's too poor to do so, they can have their wholesaler test it (right @Tyler ?)

What we can do is read up on the research and evidence, and really, our power now is being able to choose not to consume tudei kava or order from a vendor that is questionable as well as abstaining from consuming organic solvent extracts.

Again, just to clarify, tudei hasn't been "proven to be toxic", though as you saw Dr. Xing and Dr. Lebot say, there is very good reason to avoid it. I know that there is coming research in this area, and we might just be getting that incontrovertible evidence that tudei is toxic.

Until then, let's be mindful to only speak as to what we know so far.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

@keeron You said--- "To be fair, people put way more stress and damage on their liver's everyday, consuming Alcohol, Mcdonalds, Processed Foods and harsh chemicals.
My diet it is : Fruit, Nuts, Chicken, Gluten free bread, Lettuce,Mushrooms & Greens (I'm Sugar Free & Gluten Free). *This is literally all i eat* No Processed foods at all. & No alcohol, unless used for an extract and evaporated. No other drugs or pharma drugs."

This sounds very vegan, are you vegan? My wife and I are vegan, I am certainly glad that kava is a vegan product. Also on a side note, since you wanted to make the kava extract for when you are not able to make the kava drink, might I suggest my micronized or even my instant kava, all you do is stir it in and drink. Also it is not like the more common micronized powders, this is not hard on your system because of the filtering process it goes through before I put the kava in my micronizer.
I wonder how many other vegans are on the forum. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

 

[infraredz]

I definitely second Chris' thoughts and suggestions. You can get the beauty of easy of use, potent noble kava without all the undesirable compounds ethanol would extract

 

[infraredz]

Oh, and I'm a vegetarian that mostly eats vegan. I don't go crazy about it, but most of the food I eat is vegan.