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K@ at BKH

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TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
Well I sort of disagree on people generally educated about booze, because after drinking since I was 16, I didnt really understand how booze affected my body until just a few short years ago. If I understood then what I know now, there may have been a possibility I would have been drinking kava instead.

Another thing I like about my concept is that it can be implemented and self enforced by the industry. You dont have to wait for the govt to impose it.

Maybe somthing good for an association or special interest group to take on. :whistle:
So you think that if you had taken a quick course on booze's physiological effects at the age of 16-18 you wouldn't have been drinking it? This may be true, but I doubt it.. :( When I was a teenager I was bombarded with government-sponsored campaigns on the evils of smoking tobacco. And yet I started smoking a pipe (yep, an actual pipe, not cigarettes) at the age of 17 and was a heavy smoker for 7-8 years.
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
No... Was just saying I was never educated enough about substances to make an informed decision. Most things Ive done were from rumor and peer pressure.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
...
That being said, restaurants everywhere sell regular beverages that are of minimal risk(soda, coffee, tea) and they also sell alcohol, which is of high risk and can offer withdrawals worse than heroin. ...
I very much get the irony of people like me saying "Oh noes! You shouldn't sell addictive substances in bars!" when 99.9999% of bars revolve around selling alcohol. And coffee, which is addictive, is sold all over the place. The thing is, I really don't believe K@ is as harmless as coffee. Coffee (and caffeine) has been extensively researched, and is generally agreed to be safe, although it is addictive and does cause withdrawal. I have personally experienced headaches from caffeine withdrawal. It was annoying, but nowhere near the level of unpleasantness that I have heard people withdrawing from K@ describe. K@ is not nearly as well understood, but there is a strong pharmolocogical basis, and lots of anecdotal evidence, to suppose the withdrawal syndrome is pretty bad for some people. I have seen some stories where people seem to have no problems at first, but the negative consequences sneak up. Now, certainly alcohol is worse. But we are talking about kava bars here, not alcohol bars. A large part of the appeal of kava is that it is a safe, non-addictive alternative to alcohol. Many folks turn to kava precisely because they have had trouble with addictions to other things. I would go so far as to say that in my opinion kava is better than alcohol, and that nakamals are better places than alcohol bars, in principle. I think introducing something like K@ to a kava bar would make it, frankly, a worse place for people who go there with the intention of just drinking some nice relaxing, non-addictive kava. Say you are a recovering opiate addict who has been clean for some time. You go to a kava bar, and you see a sign advertising K@. Might you not be tempted? The kava bar won't sell you enough to really do much. But you might drink a cup of weak K@ tea, be reminded of what you liked about opiates, and, as they say, be off to the races again. That is not a problem I have ever had, but if I had, I might be a somewhat reluctant to go to a place where there would be any temptation.
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
I very much get the irony of people like me saying "Oh noes! You shouldn't sell addictive substances in bars!" when 99.9999% of bars revolve around selling alcohol. And coffee, which is addictive, is sold all over the place. The thing is, I really don't believe K@ is as harmless as coffee. Coffee (and caffeine) has been extensively researched, and is generally agreed to be safe, although it is addictive and does cause withdrawal. I have personally experienced headaches from caffeine withdrawal. It was annoying, but nowhere near the level of unpleasantness that I have heard people withdrawing from K@ describe. K@ is not nearly as well understood, but there is a strong pharmolocogical basis, and lots of anecdotal evidence, to suppose the withdrawal syndrome is pretty bad for some people. I have seen some stories where people seem to have no problems at first, but the negative consequences sneak up. Now, certainly alcohol is worse. But we are talking about kava bars here, not alcohol bars. A large part of the appeal of kava is that it is a safe, non-addictive alternative to alcohol. Many folks turn to kava precisely because they have had trouble with addictions to other things. I would go so far as to say that in my opinion kava is better than alcohol, and that nakamals are better places than alcohol bars, in principle. I think introducing something like K@ to a kava bar would make it, frankly, a worse place for people who go there with the intention of just drinking some nice relaxing, non-addictive kava. Say you are a recovering opiate addict who has been clean for some time. You go to a kava bar, and you see a sign advertising K@. Might you not be tempted? The kava bar won't sell you enough to really do much. But you might drink a cup of weak K@ tea, be reminded of what you liked about opiates, and, as they say, be off to the races again. That is not a problem I have ever had, but if I had, I might be a somewhat reluctant to go to a place where there would be any temptation.
I'm not sure if this whole post was in response to my quote you used, but let's see if we can't take a look at some of the things you mentioned from a different view, some of the implications they hold and how they might appear to remove personal responsibility and place it elsewhere.

But first, I never mentioned 'bars', whose primary service is to offer alcohol. My analogy was about restaurants, whose primary service is food and relatively benign beverages but will also sell poisonous, addictive alcohol if you so choose to buy it. Second, I've made no claims as to how K@ compares to coffee in terms of addiction/withdrawal/safety. For those implying that Judd said coffee and K@ are equals, full-stop, you might be conveniently over-looking his exact quotes. "When not being abused, it is mild and safe." "In normal doses K@ is only mildly addictive."

verticity said:
A large part of the appeal of kava is that it is a safe, non-addictive alternative to alcohol. Many folks turn to kava precisely because they have had trouble with addictions to other things.
We all agree on this, don't we ? This is a common, modern, western usage of kava that diverges from it's traditional use. Are we to expect a kava bar owner to take this into consideration and tailor the entirety of the business to patrons who fit in this specific category of kava drinker? Ideally, maybe...but in reality, unlikely. Does this expectation trickle all the way down the kava farmer or K@ farmer, do we expect them to take in to consideration that Joe Schmoe from Indiana might abuse the crop they grow, that helps financially support their village or family? Do we expect grain farmers to consider they are the first step to alcohol and alcoholics. Do we expect grain farmers to only grow grain for food but not grain for alcohol, since food is generally safe to consume and alcohol isn't by comparison?

verticity said:
Say you are a recovering opiate addict who has been clean for some time. You go to a kava bar, and you see a sign advertising K@. Might you not be tempted? The kava bar won't sell you enough to really do much. But you might drink a cup of weak K@ tea, be reminded of what you liked about opiates, and, as they say, be off to the races again.
Again, this scenario is playing out everyday in dining restaurants, with a drug that's worse than K@. Ex-Drinkers/Alcoholics are regularly in businesses that blatantly sell their vice. Booze. But do we expect restaurants and grocery store owners to politely consider that they might be tempting alcoholics by having alcohol available in their establishments and encourage them to remove it, despite it being legal, despite it being requested and despite it being profitable ?
 
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verticity

I'm interested in things
I'm not sure if this whole post was in response to my quote you used, but let's see if we can't take a look at some of the things you mentioned from a different view, some of the implications they hold and how they might appear to remove personal responsibility and place it elsewhere.

But first, I never mentioned 'bars', whose primary service is to offer alcohol. My analogy was about restaurants, whose primary service is food and relatively benign beverages but will also sell poisonous, addictive alcohol if you so choose to buy it. Second, I've made no claims as to how K@ compares to coffee in terms of addiction/withdrawal/safety. For those implying that Judd said coffee and K@ are equals, full-stop, you might be conveniently over-looking his exact quotes. "When not being abused, it is mild and safe." "In normal doses K@ is only mildly addictive."


We all agree on this, don't we ? This is a common, modern, western usage of kava that diverges from it's traditional use. Are we to expect a kava bar owner to take this into consideration and tailor the entirety of the business to patrons who fit in this specific category of kava drinker? Ideally, maybe...but in reality, unlikely. Does this expectation trickle all the way down the kava farmer or K@ farmer, do we expect them to take in to consideration that Joe Schmoe from Indiana might abuse the crop they grow, that helps financially support their village or family? Do we expect grain farmers to consider they are the first step to alcohol and alcoholics. Do we expect grain farmers to only grow grain for food but not grain for alcohol, since food is generally safe to consume and alcohol isn't by comparison?


Again, this scenario is playing out everyday in dining restaurants, with a drug that's worse than K@. Ex-Drinkers/Alcoholics are regularly in businesses that blatantly sell their vice. Booze. But do we expect restaurants and grocery store owners to politely consider that they might be tempting alcoholics by having alcohol available in their establishments and encourage them to remove it, despite it being legal, despite it being requested and despite it being profitable ?
My comments were not really in response to your comments. Maybe I caused some confusion by quoting your comments and responding to them... hmmm... But, of course people are ultimately responsible for what they put into their own bodies. I have had problems with alcohol in the past. I do go to restaurants all the time that serve alcohol. I am not tempted to order a beer or anything (although many years ago when I was first getting sober it might have seemed like more of a problem, to the point where I would avoid any place that served alcohol). But given the option, in general I prefer to go to restaurants that don't serve alcohol, especially restaurants that have a bar in them, simply because the presence of alcohol at an establishment generally seems to make for a less pleasant, and--yes--a less family-friendly, atmosphere. That was really the point I was trying to make: not that I or anyone else are not responsible for what we choose to ingest, but that I think the presence of K@ at a nakamal would degrade the atmosphere, and disrespect the tradition of kava, to the point where it would become a place that I personally would rather not go to. I don't think just because a place sells K@ there are going to literally be a bunch of creepy junkie type people hanging out there or anything like that. I'm talking about something more subtle, which admittedly might only be in my own head. But that's how I feel about it.
 
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verticity

I'm interested in things
So... I was just going to post some snarky comment about Chuck-E-Cheese maybe being a counter-example that directly contradicts what I was just saying about restaurants that don't serve alcohol having a more pleasant atmosphere. But it turns out that Chuck-E-Cheese in fact serves beer and wine. So I'll have to go with McDonald's.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Let me put what I was trying to say another way.
In this country, alcohol is extremely prevalent. It is almost literally everywhere. For a significant minority of people who drink it, it can have very bad consequences. This situation can lead to some odd juxtapositions if you use the "alcohol card" as a rhetorical tactic, and lends a sense of heavy irony to things that might otherwise seem simply outlandish. For example:

"I want to sell pot brownies at the church bake sale."
"That is an outlandish idea. On the other hand, alcohol is everywhere."

"I want to sell penis gourds at Disneyland [in the Tiki Room]."
"That is an outlandish idea. But alcohol is everywhere."

"I want to sell opioids in a nakamal."
"That is an outlandish idea. But alcohol..."

This phenomenon is kind of akin to what it was like during the Cold War, when this country and the world seemingly faced the threat of nuclear annihilation at any time. The absurdity of the situation was a breeding ground for cynicism. For example:

"A song called 'Rock Lobster' is a hit on the radio."
"That is a peculiar song. But the Russkies could nuke us any time. What could be crazier than that?"

I'll also say: I don't think the government should ban or restrict selling alcohol, or any of the other things I just mentioned. From a legal standpoint, I am fine with allowing the market to determine whether there should be pot brownies, penis gourds, or K@ at church bake sales, Disneyland, or kava bars, respectively. My personal preference is that the latter two not happen. I might be in a minority in that opinion, and if that is the case, I might choose not to take the kids to Disneyland, or myself to a kava bar. I would still go to Disneyland myself though. And the government should have done something about the B-52's a long time ago.

I hope I am making myself clear. And if you are under the age of 30 or so and are wondering why I am rambling on about the Cold War, it is because I am old.
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
Would it surprise people to know that the majority of nakamals in Vanuatu serve alcohol along with kava? And I'm not just talking the Port Vila public naks. Even in the tiniest kastom villages alcohol is served with kava. A beer or two with a kava session is extremely common in Fiji and Samoa as well, though there aren't really public kava bars there.

I really do appreciate the kava purist thing. I consider myself one for the most part. But even native kava drinkers aren't so pure.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
Would it surprise people to know that the majority of nakamals in Vanuatu serve alcohol along with kava? And I'm not just talking the Port Vila public naks. Even in the tiniest kastom villages alcohol is served with kava. A beer or two with a kava session is extremely common in Fiji and Samoa as well, though there aren't really public kava bars there.

I really do appreciate the kava purist thing. I consider myself one for the most part. But even native kava drinkers aren't so pure.
I doubt it is the majority and I do know that the practice is not just relatively new, but also frequently criticised.

In any case my main point is that K@ has a bad reputation and a highly questionable legal status (I am inclined to believe that it is illegal to serve it for the purpose of human consumption). By serving it at bula you do the opposite of safeguarding kava's reputation as a safe beverage. If your goal is to improve the reputation of K@ because you think it is unfairly perceived as something less benign than coffee or bud light, that's fine. I just wish you or other K@ supporters could do it in a dedicated K@ cafe. Oh wait, I forgot. Nobody can open an honest "K@ cafe" because it is likely a federal crime to sell krat for human consumption. Well, I suppose I just wish it wasnt called a "kava bar".
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
Would it surprise people to know that the majority of nakamals in Vanuatu serve alcohol along with kava? And I'm not just talking the Port Vila public naks. Even in the tiniest kastom villages alcohol is served with kava. A beer or two with a kava session is extremely common in Fiji and Samoa as well, though there aren't really public kava bars there.

I really do appreciate the kava purist thing. I consider myself one for the most part. But even native kava drinkers aren't so pure.
It does not surprise me. But it does make me sad.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
I think that's the key question: is serving K@ in a cafe even legal in America? From what I've read it appears that it's a crime to sell it for human consumption, but it's legal to possess and consume it.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
I'll just say I think it is irresponsible to sell it in a kava bar, we don't need kava involved with another substance which obviously carries a lot of controversy. They don't belong together, when I went to Kavasutra in NYC a couple months ago and found out that they sell k, I immediately thought it was a cool experience for the kava but I wasn't planning on returning.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
I think that's the key question: is serving K@ in a cafe even legal in America? From what I've read it appears that it's a crime to sell it for human consumption, but it's legal to possess and consume it.
I think it can be sold as a tea, I don't actually know, but a guess.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I think that's the key question: is serving K@ in a cafe even legal in America? From what I've read it appears that it's a crime to sell it for human consumption, but it's legal to possess and consume it.
Well, if you look at the AKA (American K@ Association) web site it states that K@ is legal in most states. Presumably they have lawyers advising them and know what they are talking about. However I can't find anything specifically regarding the laws about selling it in cafes or food service establishments vs. elsewhere. One would hope that anyone who did choose to do that would get some good legal advice before doing so.
http://www.americankratom.org/legal_status
 
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