This. Whatever we can do to work towards it, we should be doing.
K@ at BKH
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ThePiper
Kava Lover
I'm always a little frustrated by the fact that there is not solidarity in this issue within the kava community. Kava and K@ should not be sold and promoted together, they must be separate for the good of both plants. But just because K@ is not good to associate with kava does not make K@ some demon plant to be judged harshly, or that kava is automatically safer in every way like it was made from angel piss or something. The fact is that K@ has not been linked to any fatality on its own, everything else wrong with the plant can be linked to the misuse of its user. We could easily bash kava in a similar way. "They compare kava to CHAMOMILE, but too much can lead to dizzyness, vomiting, dehydration, and a HANGOVER" or "oh they say kava is a harmless herbal tea, but when taken with tylenol it can DAMAGE your liver!!" "oh they act like kava isn't a drug, but too much and you can't even WALK STRAIGHT!" or "oh they say kava doesnt have many risks, but get behind the wheel after too many shells and your reaction time is impaired, which can result in getting yourself and others KILLED" or "kava causes dry skin, even to the point of cracks all over your body that even BLEED, and the drinkers sometimes keep drinking it every day despite the fact that they look like ANCIENT STONE GOLEMS THAT ARE CRUMBLING TO DUST!" or...
anyway, you see where I'm going. Please, if you value our freedom to use herbs without inspiring witch hunts and the stripping of our freedoms, don't judge our god-given botanical teachers so harshly.
anyway, you see where I'm going. Please, if you value our freedom to use herbs without inspiring witch hunts and the stripping of our freedoms, don't judge our god-given botanical teachers so harshly.
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ThePiper
Kava Lover
It's all a matter of perspective and frankly in my opinion somewhat irrelevant to the big picture. First off, there is the argument that K@ is illegal in some of its countries of origin (notice it is not banned in all of these...) simply because it was so effective at weaning people off of opiates, and thus threatening the opium industry during that time. IN fact, in Thailand there has recently been much talk of lifting the ban for precisely that reason-- that it saves lives and fights addiction. well over 100 studies have been done on K@, granted many are old and many are not focused on humans, but all that tells us is that we don't know. Lack of knowledge can not serve as knowledge, only as an incentive to "play it safe" which is valid but not scientific proof of danger. Kava and K@ should not be portrayed in the same way. Many would argue that kava has a place in the world as a recreational substance, while with K@ the argument is that K@ has it's place as a primarily medicinal substance. We could spend ages arguing over which substance has the potential to save more lives, but the truth is that both of these plants DO in fact save lives... Most people I have met that use K@ did so to manage an illness without the use of opiates or benzos, antidepressants etc. We have a massive opiate problem here in America, and while it would be nice if kava could help everyone get off of opiates, that is nothing more than wishful thinking. K@ demonstrates a far better potential for getting people off of deadly opiate medications/illicit opiates than kava does, and one could debate whether the same is true for its efficacy being better than kava for overcoming alcoholism. I have heard so many stories of families falling apart that were brought back to a good place because of K@. Despite the fact that there are more kava users than K@ users, I have seen far more stories of people on the brink of their own demise being saved by K@ than kava. In fact the one consistent element of every K@ success story I have seen is that it allows people to become productive members of society again, when before they couldn't. I am not discounting kava's potential in the least, but I would say its silly to argue over whether a substance that has some addiction potential (ambiguous term, I've never heard of someone prostituting for K@, or unable to keep a job while using it like one might for other addictive substances) but no fatalities and enables people to function in society when they otherwise could not (look for all the stories of veterans with PTSD saying K@ gave them their life back) is somehow inherently inferior to kava. And then their is the fact that kava is probably more likely to cause a dangerous reaction with medications, thus making it dangerous in rare scenarios (but still just as legitimate as any other) So at best you can argue that they have different uses, but you cannot argue that one is more valuable to humans than the other.
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verticity
I'm interested in things
Probably not high school students. If it is a kava bar in Florida it is likely targeted at college students on Spring break... Now, in any case I am not in favor of pushing krat on naive users. But if college students are going to kava bars and drinking kava, that would be a vast improvement over the usual alcohol-fueled ridiculousness.
Poivrier
methystified
My opinion is that K@ should not be illegal nor demonized.
It is a beautiful tree, it has very interesting medicinal potential and is very easy to grow. It has helped many people and should help a lot more in the future (if "Big Pharma" don't stomp it to the ground).
What I can't stand are the lies about the negatives effects of K@.
You can become physically addicted on a "reasonable dose" regimen (1-2 gr. is enough for some sensitive individuals to reach a very strong, opium-level euphoria). Two months of daily use, not abusive use but something like the way a lot of us use kava at the end of the day, is enough to start the physical addiction dance.
In some individuals, and it is not rare at all, it can be worse than opiate pills to quit. When you quit K@ you don't quit one alkaloid, you quit a whole complex cocktail. The issue of the post-acute withdrawal symptoms that seems to be worse with K@ than with other opiates is real.
The place of K@ products should be, in my humble opinion, in the hands of health professionals, not bartenders, head shop staff etc.
Kava is a so different animal that I can't understand why it is paired with K@ in "kava bars"...except for one thing: kava tastes bad and usually do nothing for first time drinkers. On the other hand K@ taste is not as difficult to blend with other herbs and it works wonder from the first time...this is the perfect product to push for having returning customers, daily customers.
"Don't worry it's not difficult to quit, it's like coffee". Yeah, right. I could say "kava is just a mouthwash to kill bacteria, it doesn't do anything else really, it's in the pepper family".
It is a beautiful tree, it has very interesting medicinal potential and is very easy to grow. It has helped many people and should help a lot more in the future (if "Big Pharma" don't stomp it to the ground).
What I can't stand are the lies about the negatives effects of K@.
You can become physically addicted on a "reasonable dose" regimen (1-2 gr. is enough for some sensitive individuals to reach a very strong, opium-level euphoria). Two months of daily use, not abusive use but something like the way a lot of us use kava at the end of the day, is enough to start the physical addiction dance.
In some individuals, and it is not rare at all, it can be worse than opiate pills to quit. When you quit K@ you don't quit one alkaloid, you quit a whole complex cocktail. The issue of the post-acute withdrawal symptoms that seems to be worse with K@ than with other opiates is real.
The place of K@ products should be, in my humble opinion, in the hands of health professionals, not bartenders, head shop staff etc.
Kava is a so different animal that I can't understand why it is paired with K@ in "kava bars"...except for one thing: kava tastes bad and usually do nothing for first time drinkers. On the other hand K@ taste is not as difficult to blend with other herbs and it works wonder from the first time...this is the perfect product to push for having returning customers, daily customers.
"Don't worry it's not difficult to quit, it's like coffee". Yeah, right. I could say "kava is just a mouthwash to kill bacteria, it doesn't do anything else really, it's in the pepper family".
ThePiper
Kava Lover
You make a solid point. My perspective of the cause for any downplaying of risk associated with K@ has been due the fact that we have had to adapt to a world where the government is constantly breathing down our neck looking for any way to feed the drug war prison industrial complex. I think what you are saying makes a lot of sense but it is as though we are living in a very primitive and oppressive society at times so this is why, for example, so many people say that marijuana is the safest drug in the world. I would argue that kava is actually safer if I was speaking from my gut and experience. The tendency for cannabis smoking to remove the user from his sense of balance and reality is too real to be ignored. And yes some people allow cannabis to take over their life and cause them to forget their purpose. But this is the fault of the user of course. Regardless, many will say that cannabis is the safest plant on Earth and that it is safer than coffee (perhaps) because we are so tired of people being locked in cages for the peaceful consumption of a medicinal plants. And beyond that we will argue this because we think that cannabis needs to be legal as a medicine. So what the argument really comes down to is whether you think it is more just for K@ to be illegal so that no poor fool will think that he is drinking a very nice cup of coffee and get carried away. Or if you think that it is worth doing everything we can to make K@ available to those it helps and to keep those people out of cages. Is there a middle ground? Almost certainly. But many people are scared because we have seen what the drug war has done to ruin more lives than all of the drugs in the world combined. And so fear makes the people think they will not take a chance on people or governments. And although this view is very sensible I can see what you are saying because once that coffee claim is out there, the businessman can come along and manipulate it to make him a profit, which is very harmful for all parties
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@ThePiper I think both sides of the argument are valid (to an extent), where I totally disagree is that it's offered next to or in the same environment as kava. If it helps the individual, wonderful!
However, I don't see why it needs or should be associated with kava, specially in a website dedicated to kava. Why it continues to come up is beyond me. just my opinion.
However, I don't see why it needs or should be associated with kava, specially in a website dedicated to kava. Why it continues to come up is beyond me. just my opinion.
It can come up here because what these discussions effectively do is continue to educate. When we turn a blind eye to the sale of K@ at kava bars, we are giving it the green light. Again, I've used K@ to effectively taper and stop using much more horrible opioids, so I understand it's necessity and function on a very personal level. I do not, however, agree in any way with it being sold ready-to-drink side by side with kava, while calling yourself a "kava bar".
I am not saying it can't come up here, I just think it should in a matter of quitting it, because it's not like a cup of coffee as someone else had mentioned. It's a highly addictive plant (for most people).
edit: Also just my personal opinion.
I think we're in agreement with our disagreements
(I think...it's still pretty early on Sunday for me to be typing on the internet)
ThePiper
Kava Lover
Though it might be a point of contention, I do think that most of the recent posters are in agreement on this aspect of the debate, myself included. The only party that I have identified to disagree is BKH, and there are several who seem undecided. It has occurred to me now that there is maybe some misunderstanding going on but I am not sure. We are all making a statement that largely agrees with the opinion of the others, and then the next poster wants to throw their two cents in and the way that it is written almost looks like there is an argument, when in fact it is just that the posters want the conversation to carry on. For example, @Krunʞy I think the captain was basically agreeing with you, he wasn't implying that you meant it's time to shut down the conversation on this forum. The thing about forums is we in many ways have to draw assumptions on what the person means by what he has written because we are having limited communication and that is where we begin to think our opinions are at odds with one another.
Edit: ah it seems you guys got it worked out before I could write a thesis paper on it
Edit: ah it seems you guys got it worked out before I could write a thesis paper on it
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
One of the reasons it continues to come up is because both plants are used to treat many of the same issues - anxiety/relaxation, depression, inflammation, pain, sleep issues, etc. Obviously kava should be the main focus of a kava forum but the idea that kava and kava alone should work for everybody gets old. it's very common to mix and match herbals to get the desired effects, especially when used medicinally.
Also, someone mentioned the lack of human studies with K@... Even with the lack of studies, it seems we have a better understanding of how it works compared to kava.
kasa_balavu
Yaqona Dina
The problem is that public perception is important, and the perception of K@ is negative.
See this post from a few days ago relating the situation in Sweden:
I don't think many on here have any real objection to people consuming K@. We're just worried that when the crackdown on K@ comes (as it did a few months ago), kava could be hurt by association.
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