Kava and K@: A Legal and Ethical Perspective

[Deleted User01]

Krat is more like oxycontin than a bag of carrots in that it is known to be addictive. Kava doesn't want to be associated with that because of "guilt by association". Thus we want to totally separate Kava from any category inhabited by Krat. Kava is a strong drug like Coffee. I wouldn't drink coffee if not for the effects and I wouldn't drink Kava if not for the effects. But the side effects from Kava and Coffee are mild (in general) compared to the potential damage done by Krat. I don't talk about alcohol in this comparison because (in general) alcohol is way more dangerous than Kava or Coffee. Now I always have to put (in general) in these posts because someone can always come up with a low percentage exception to the rule which still makes for a weak case.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Well, the fact that Kava isn't addictive doesn't mean it isn't a psychoactive substance. Marijuana and LSD aren't addictive either

 

[Deleted User01]

I think everyone agrees that Kava is psychoactive. Just like Coffee is. If I could drink coffee all day without trashing my stomach then I wouldn't need "heady" kavas. For me, Heavier kavas are a substitute for another of my favorite psychoactive drugs, alcohol. But again, I can no longer drink alcohol everyday without bad side effects so I switched to Kava. Alcohol is addictive to many just like Krat is. If you want, sell those two together in a Krat Bar but Kava doesn't associate with those two so keep Kava out of that venue. Honestly, I hate to see Kava bars selling alcohol. The two don't mix well (in general). You "partiers" out there, please don't post that you mix the two and you are still alive to tell the story. It sets a bad example so keep it to yourself.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I don't think anyone is advocating that K@ should be considered food but kava really doesn't fit there either. Kavas only use is as a psychoactive substance when brewed into a tea (traditional prep). It also isn't freely given to children, pregnant women or people with health issues..

Like Kavasseur said, they will always be categorized similarly because of the similarity in many effects. Not because they are botanically related or accomplish the same result in the same way. The constant references of K@ to pharmaceutical opiates or other drugs is unnecessary. It's like seeing people on other forums saying kava is as bad on the liver as alcohol.

 

[Deleted User01]

I posted that Krat is a good step down from Pharma drugs and only because Krat users have told us that story. Like I said, it ain't theoretical, that's what they posted. And many have posted they wanted to get off Krat because it was addictive (to them). Bottom line is that K@ is more dangerous that Kava and we don't want to see the two sold together at Kava bars. Selling K@ and alcohol together would make more sense as far as being in the same category. But I'm sure the two taken together are very dangerous.
P.S. I wonder if Kava users go to the K@ forums and post, "I am a kava user and I want to get off K@ because it is destroying my liver. So please tell me how to use Kraton". Those are the posts we see here when members want to go from K@ to Kava. By the way, the general public could give a rat's ass about either Kava or K@ so this argument is not for their sake. Their preference is for pills and alcohol. Makes us look like a bunch of goody 2 shoes.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

The fact of the matter is that there is a broader "botanical" market that Kava has become a part of. I happen to only like Kava, but there are many out there who are generally interested in legal psychoactives.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

I posted that Krat is a good step down from Pharma drugs and only because Krat users have told us that story. Like I said, it ain't theoretical, that's what they posted. And many have posted they wanted to get off Krat because it was addictive (to them). Bottom line is that K@ is more dangerous that Kava and we don't want to see the two sold together at Kava bars. Selling K@ and alcohol together would make more sense as far as being in the same category. But I'm sure the two taken together are very dangerous.
P.S. I wonder if Kava users go to the K@ forums and post, "I am a kava user and I want to get off K@ because it is destroying my liver. So please tell me how to use Kraton". Those are the posts we see here when members want to go from K@ to Kava. By the way, the general public could give a rat's ass about either Kava or K@ so this argument is not for their sake. Their preference is for pills and alcohol. Makes us look like a bunch of goody 2 shoes.

I honestly wouldn't even consider it a step down from pharma opioids. I would consider it a leap down and more comparable to coffee when used responsibly. The addiction horror stories usually come from people using 20+ grams in a day and/or concentrates. I've dropped both coffee and K@ habits cold turkey multiple times, and coffee was always worse.

That's just me and I'm sure other people are different, but I don't think K@ is even close to pharma opioids when you're comparing both in terms of responsible or therapeutic use. Studies have shown that, for various possible reasons, addiction occurs many times slower with K@ than pharma opioid.

I'll reiterate that I don't condone using K@ or any other addictive drugs recreationally, but I don't think K@ compares well to pharmaceutical opioids in terms of their addictiveness when it's used responsibly or therapeutically.

Back on topic, I agree with a lot of what @Kavasseur is saying. Unfortunately, I think kava is gaining traction with the legal high crowd. There also seems to be a recent uptick of interest in the medicinal use of botanicals

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Yeah, exactly. Perhaps the fact that I'm being descriptive and not prescriptive is causing some confusion. I am a Kava drinker who came to Kava because it worked for me on a medicinal level, but was also the doorway to the general Kava community and broader culture. 10 years ago, it was definitely marketed as a botanical "legal high" in the Continental US that could replace Valium and other anti-anxiety meds. So it shouldn't be a surprise that it is still seen that way. I am not really that alarmed at the Krat connection, and perhaps that speaks to my own ignorance. I too don't see Krat as being on the same level as opiates, and have heard many stories (even here) of Krat helping people overcome addiction. Again, I've never even tried the stuff

 

[Kojo Douglas]

To be fully transparent here, I've been offered money to talk about Krat on my website. I was quite clear to those who made the offer that I only concern myself with Kava. I'm not interested in other "botanicals."

 

[Groggy]

To be fully transparent here, I've been offered money to talk about Krat on my website. I was quite clear to those who made the offer that I only concern myself with Kava. I'm not interested in other "botanicals."

In the interest of transparency, would you mind sharing who this was? Assuming it's someone we may be familiar with here.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I'll have to dig it up in my emails, but you'll be happy to know that it wasn't a Kava vendor.

 

[violet]

Just a reminder guys, in the interest of maintaining kava as a wholly separate botanical from other things that may be served alongside it in the same establishments, discussion of K@ shall be permitted only as it relates to its presence in kava bars and how kava can help a user break their dependency from it.

Forum rules and Terms of Service can be read here: http://kavaforums.com/forum/help/terms

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Discussions such as this could benefit from the rules being changed in a way that allows healthy conversation and education. If only negative posts are allowed for certain plants, it's easy to see why so many don't really know much about them. There is also the fact that a lot more people are searching for herbal relief for their health issues since medical science and pharmaceuticals fail on many levels. Discussion of kava use in conjunction or compared to other herbs would be helpful to people using it or wanting to use it medicinally.

 

[Groggy]

Discussions such as this could benefit from the rules being changed in a way that allows healthy conversation and education. If only negative posts are allowed for certain plants, it's easy to see why so many don't really know much about them. There is also the fact that a lot more people are searching for herbal relief for their health issues since medical science and pharmaceuticals fail on many levels. Discussion of kava use in conjunction or compared to other herbs would be helpful to people using it or wanting to use it medicinally.

For every positive there is likely an equally negative outcome (or several). Generally discussions of other herbs are allowed, so long as the main topic is kava or a transition from said herb to kava. It was written this way to avoid unwanted users seeking out a legal high which is not what KF is about. You're right in that there is a benefit to discussing these topics, KF is just not the place. This thread among a few others are exceptions but they need to remain on topic as Violet pointed out.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

So are we going to have some unit go around seeing if various Kava bars sell Krat and then banish them to a subforum? I'm a bit confused about what the idea is here.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

I also don't think it's explicitly illegal to sell K@ for human consumption. It really just depends on how it's marketed and how the FDA feels about it. That kind of ties into the debate over whether kava is a beverage, supplement, food, etc. It's all just semantics BS...

 

[Groggy]

So are we going to have some unit go around seeing if various Kava bars sell Krat and then banish them to a subforum? I'm a bit confused about what the idea is here.

Not sure where you got that notion and it's not what I said. I simply said this is a forum about kava, kava lovers, kava culture and so on. K**** does not factor into the equation as a whole aside from people transitioning from it to kava. If I recall correctly, that was your original goal as well.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Oh, I thought I read that any vendor selling Krat online or in their bars would be banished to a subforum. Which is a lot different than simply saying Krat shouldn't be discussed here.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

It was always my impression that we didn't discuss Krat here anyway. As in, having threads about which Krat people liked best, etc.