Kava and K@: A Legal and Ethical Perspective

[kasa_balavu]

Wow, way to totally misinterpret the intent of a city council that didn't want a Kava Bar in their town. Krat was a tertiary issue in that case. There is some evidence that local bars even got money and power behind that decision.

I'm sorry if you disagree with my interpretation, Douglas, but I don't see how the information available to us on this forum could be interpreted any other way. I believe the mention of kr starts with "the greater concern is". You allude to bribery, claiming there is evidence but providing none. Personally I don't see the need to even go there; Floridians have been bombarded with headlines like these for years. It sounds terrible and based on the bad press alone I wouldn't want that shit anywhere near my kids. Anyone voted into their position would be loathe to be seen to support the stuff.

So how can you call pro-booze thugs "do gooders?"... Be careful before you canonize those who pound gavels.

Does "do-gooder" mean something else where you're from? I didn't mean it as a compliment. These sort of committees are always stacked with do-gooders. See also: US education boards that try to ban scientific fact and replace it with creationism. The people who do these things are do-gooders. Their hearts are in the right place, they're trying to protect their communities and "save the children", but are terribly misguided.

- http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/do-gooder

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

"
Another attempt to prop up chosen vendors and bash others. I'm getting pretty disturbed by some of this.

I noticed you always think this, I am surprised that someone like you can not understand what is really going on.
The good thing is that there was an explanation and a real good one too. I think it says it all and if you can understand this then you will not be griping about certain vendors being valued over others, @verticity said this----
"Look at is this way. Since the beginning, @Kapmcrunk has had certain standards for the vendors who are featured on this site. They are vetted for quality, a reputation for delivering what they say, etc. In return for meeting those standards, vendors are given their own sub-Forum which is featured on the front page, vendor "flair" on their user info, etc. They get special treatment for being reputable, good vendors, in other words. Now this recent change means that vendors who sell krat, either online or in bars, will no longer get the same special treatment. In other words, whether a vendor sells krat is now taken into account in the overall assessment of vendor quality. Vendors who choose to sell krat are still allowed to participate on the Forum. They are not "exiled". They are simply not given preferential treatment. Jimmy (and the majority of moderators here) have agreed that offering essentially free advertising to such vendors is bad for the image and reputation of kava. And I have to say: I agree with the new policy 100%. There are many other places on the internet to discuss everything under the Sun, including everything about krat, but this is a Kava Forum, so I have to agree with Jimmy and the majority of mods in this case."

My point is that I have been growing kava, researching, experimenting with production techniques, guiding kava farmers and many other things dealing with kava, I have been doing these things since you were six years old, and I do it very well. When I started my kava website a few years ago, I came to the kava forums because it was like no other place. It was a kava place and I loved that. I felt I would fit right in and provide a great made in USA, "Pure Hawaiian" 'Awa to the world as well as information about kava. I have been doing this since I started here.
I never got any special treatment or anything like that, I just came here to do kava and that is all I do, that is what this forums is all about.
I am not being propped up by the kava forums, it is the people of the kava forums that choose me and the kava forums sees that. The kava forums sees that I am in alignment with there goal and that is to be about kava. Other vendors that are as you put it, being propped up, they also love kava enough to just fit right in at the "Kava" forums. There is no conspiracy here and never has been. The kava forums and the certified members are all about kava, heart and soul. Since you are the kavasseur you should be all about kava too but you seem to like to throw some rocks in the road by implying there is some special treatment other then our free advertising that the kava forums does for the certified vendors, some witch hunt as you have said before.
I think it is about time you chill out with all this witch hunt stuff and conspiracy theories. Go and drink a few shells and then drink some more, it will help you remember what kava is all about and what this forums is all about. Please! I am asking nicely.
Aloha.

Chris

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

And the K@ bashing continues...

It's also perfectly legal to purchase spray paint and sweat socks then huff until your face falls off, but would you support a kava bar which sold these items and permitted such activity in their establishment?

@Deleted User, it's totally baffling that you would compare selling K@ to selling synthetic legal highs, which is exactly what you did. No, I would not support a kava bar that encouraged huffing in their establishment. This is exactly the kind of useless, fear-mongering BS that can get both plants banned for no logical reason.

Maybe all kava should be banned since it's been linked to liver failure? And I'm dealing with 100% fact. Kava consumption has been linked to liver problems. Therefore, it's link to K@ could unfairly jeopardize K@'s legal status when people consuming them both start having liver problems from the kava. This is obviously ridiculous logic, but it makes about as much sense as the conclusions you've drawn about K@.

It seems like you've strayed from pro-kava to anti-K@ propaganda.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Absolutely ridiculous

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

@Rick.Sanchez - You and others are missing my point, which is NOT to compare K@ to huffing paint. I was comparing two activities, both of which involve a consumer engaged in legal use of a substance. K@ and paint are both legal to sell, but no one would think very highly of a merchant who sold paint for the express purpose of huffing. Yes, he could hide behind the fact that paint had other uses, but if he sells it and allows huffing in his own establishment I don't think you would condone this practice.

Contrast this to the merchant who sells K@ (which has no use other than consumption) under the guise of "not for human consumption", then watches his customers consume it.

It's a poor comparison. You're comparing a toxic chemical to a medicinal plant.

Another attempt to prop up chosen vendors and bash others. I'm getting pretty disturbed by some of this.

I've felt like this has been happening for some time. Before the targets were kava vendors, now the target is another botanical that has many effects similar to kava. Some people seem to think a K@ ban would increase customers to kava but there are many people that kava would not be able to help.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

@Rick.Sanchez - You and others are missing my point, which is NOT to compare K@ to huffing paint. I was comparing two activities, both of which involve a consumer engaged in legal use of a substance. K@ and paint are both legal to sell, but no one would think very highly of a merchant who sold paint for the express purpose of huffing. Yes, he could hide behind the fact that paint had other uses, but if he sells it and allows huffing in his own establishment I don't think you would condone this practice.

Contrast this to the merchant who sells K@ (which has no use other than consumption) under the guise of "not for human consumption", then watches his customers consume it.

So your point is to compare selling K@ to selling huffing supplies, exactly like I pointed out in my last post? And like I said in my last post, I would never condone huffing or someone who created an establishment that encouraged huffing. Selling K@, an herb with medicinal qualities, is vastly different from selling huffing supplies and allowing people to huff in their establishment. I think I get your point, and it's completely ridiculous.

I could give you a million reasons why that's a totally specious comparison to make, but if you can't see it for yourself, I'd probably be wasting my time

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I'm sorry if you disagree with my interpretation, Douglas, but I don't see how the information available to us on this forum could be interpreted any other way. I believe the mention of kr starts with "the greater concern is". You allude to bribery, claiming there is evidence but providing none. Personally I don't see the need to even go there; Floridians have been bombarded with headlines like these for years. It sounds terrible and based on the bad press alone I wouldn't want that shit anywhere near my kids. Anyone voted into their position would be loathe to be seen to support the stuff.

There are actually quite a few politicians that support the use of K@, consumed by humans. Many states have put it up for vote and state reps have repeatedly declined to ban it or removed it from lists of substances to ban once they educated themselves on what it is and how it works. There were also senators and house representatives that requested the DEA to provide actual proof that K@ is a public health hazard, they were unable to. Outrageous headlines from poor journalists isn't scientific evidence.

There is plenty of good press but you won't see those links on this forum as it is a violation of terms to post them...

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

There are actually quite a few politicians that support the use of K@, consumed by humans. Many states have put it up for vote and state reps have repeatedly declined to ban it or removed it from lists of substances to ban once they educated themselves on what it is and how it works. There were also senators and house representatives that requested the DEA to provide actual proof that K@ is a public health hazard, they were unable to. Outrageous headlines from poor journalists isn't scientific evidence.

There is plenty of good press but you won't see those links on this forum as it is a violation of terms to post them...

Yes! A bipartisan group of senators and congressmen wrote separate letters to the DEA pointing out that they had no factual basis or emergency scheduling K@ alkaloids and effectively banning K@. Furthermore, a group of scientists wrote a separate letter pointing out, again, that it's ridiculous to schedule K@ alkaloids.

 

[The Kap'n]

Deleted User is making the point that even though it isn't approved for *sale* for human consumption, it's being sold as if it is.

I haven't chimed in here because my opinion is clearly stated in the terms of service. It is not approved to be sold for human consumption. It is my and the moderators/admins stance that K@ being sold with kava is implying the intent of selling for human consumption.

Edit: If you're pro-K@, there are many websites on which to espouse it's uses. Kavaforums is not a place for such.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I'm not pro-K@. It doesn't sound like many here are. But I am against the continued attack on botanical vendors who choose to sell it. I believe in the full legalization of drugs and personal choices.

 

[verticity]

I noticed you always think this, I am surprised that someone like you can not understand what is really going on.
The good thing is that there was an explanation and a real good one too. I think it says it all and if you can understand this then you will not be griping about certain vendors being valued over others, @verticity said this----
"Look at is this way. Since the beginning, @Kapmcrunk has had certain standards for the vendors who are featured on this site. They are vetted for quality, a reputation for delivering what they say, etc. In return for meeting those standards, vendors are given their own sub-Forum which is featured on the front page, vendor "flair" on their user info, etc. They get special treatment for being reputable, good vendors, in other words. Now this recent change means that vendors who sell krat, either online or in bars, will no longer get the same special treatment. In other words, whether a vendor sells krat is now taken into account in the overall assessment of vendor quality. Vendors who choose to sell krat are still allowed to participate on the Forum. They are not "exiled". They are simply not given preferential treatment. Jimmy (and the majority of moderators here) have agreed that offering essentially free advertising to such vendors is bad for the image and reputation of kava. And I have to say: I agree with the new policy 100%. There are many other places on the internet to discuss everything under the Sun, including everything about krat, but this is a Kava Forum, so I have to agree with Jimmy and the majority of mods in this case."

My point is that I have been growing kava, researching, experimenting with production techniques, guiding kava farmers and many other things dealing with kava, I have been doing these things since you were six years old, and I do it very well. When I started my kava website a few years ago, I came to the kava forums because it was like no other place. It was a kava place and I loved that. I felt I would fit right in and provide a great made in USA, "Pure Hawaiian" 'Awa to the world as well as information about kava. I have been doing this since I started here.
I never got any special treatment or anything like that, I just came here to do kava and that is all I do, that is what this forums is all about.
I am not being propped up by the kava forums, it is the people of the kava forums that choose me and the kava forums sees that. The kava forums sees that I am in alignment with there goal and that is to be about kava. Other vendors that are as you put it, being propped up, they also love kava enough to just fit right in at the "Kava" forums. There is no conspiracy here and never has been. The kava forums and the certified members are all about kava, heart and soul. Since you are the kavasseur you should be all about kava too but you seem to like to throw some rocks in the road by implying there is some special treatment other then our free advertising that the kava forums does for the certified vendors, some witch hunt as you have said before.
I think it is about time you chill out with all this witch hunt stuff and conspiracy theories. Go and drink a few shells and then drink some more, it will help you remember what kava is all about and what this forums is all about. Please! I am asking nicely.
Aloha.

Chris

Chris, I think you understood what I was saying, but just to be clear to everyone: I was not implying that you, specifically, receive "special treatment" here, but that all vendors who meet certain standards are given the same "special treatment" compared with vendors who don't meet the standards. In other words, the standards are about quality and are open to anyone--there are no special favors for friends, etc... And by "special treatment" I don't mean being "propped up", I just mean receiving "perks" that normal members don't have, such as a front-page sub forum....

 

[kasa_balavu]

There are actually quite a few politicians that support the use of K@, consumed by humans....

You're right; I should have been more specific. I was actually talking about grassroots/community/local democracy (school boards, homeowner associations, town and city councils). They're filled with self-righteous do-gooders.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

Woah, I think I misinterpreted the stance and whats going on here. I get screening vendors for who gets a page or not based on if they are a good source for good kava and adhere to the general best practices of drinking kava.

Vendors that are obvious mislabed K@ bars is one thing. Ones that have not so good kava, mix kava and K@ in cocktails, carry more variety of krat than kava on a regular basis. These are the places that are argued to misrepresent kava and what it's about. I can get behind that, sure.

But BKH didn't prove anything by ceasing the sale of K@. Judd did not need to justify his distance from the mislabed K@ bar phenomenon because it he was already distanced! Kava is clearly the flagship BKH beverage, and has been so from the get go. If we moved that vendor page we would be distancing a lot of kava drinkers from what could possibly become their favorite vendor.

Of course, the forums did that with N@H... And I'm not a fan.
The situation linked to at the top of this forum is bad press, and some are afraid of how it rubs off on kava. I'd rather admit that than try to delegitimize a kava vendor because they sell something else. And as for the regulatory hurdles... That's up to the vendor to sort through. I never believed the place of KF was ever to be the kava thought police.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Amen, @Señor Chuggs

 

[Groggy]

Of course, the forums did that with N@H... And I'm not a fan.
The situation linked to at the top of this forum is bad press, and some are afraid of how it rubs off on kava. I'd rather admit that than try to delegitimize a kava vendor because they sell something else. And as for the regulatory hurdles... That's up to the vendor to sort through. Not the place of KF to be the kava thought police.

What I believe you forget to mention is that both vendors were given ample time to reply to the community's concern with the decision to sell k@ with kava in a kava bar. Both before and after the sticky you referenced. BKH took nearly 3 months to reply, Jeff from n@h has yet to stop by and offer any insight on the matter.
Whether it is wrong or right to judge these vendors based on those actions can certainly be argued, though could have largely been avoided when it first became an issue here at KF, (3-4 months ago).

 

[The Kap'n]

If you're a vendor, and you want to be part of this website in a featured way, you'll not sell K@. If you sell K@ and you are a vendor, you are in violation of our terms of service, and you will not be featured.

 

[The Kap'n]

This thread is locked.

Edit: interesting thread from 5 years ago

http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/lets-talk-about-the-future-of-kava.595/