What's new

New 11 Year Waka (Micronized)

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
Agreed, 463251 is a noble chemotype found in many noble kavas. No argument there. I'm just trying to get my head around why the 11 year old had such an odd color. Almost brownish. Not the nice light yellow color that we normally associate with a Noble Kava. I think we will find out more down the road as some of these mysteries start to unravel. I'm sure you have already talked to your wholesaler about the whole testing thing and there is always a possibility that the newer batches from him could test a lot better. The theory is that the wholesalers/farmers are blending the kava without the knowledge of the Kava retailers. The theory would infer that the blending would stop once the whistle was blown. Just thought I would throw that out there for discussion.
Understood, but the claim is not that this kava has been spiked. The claim is that it's tudei, when it clearly isn't. If I blindly believed the acetone test, in Deleted User's iteration, spiked kavas show yellow but a little darker, not amber. Luckily, I don't have to blindly believe this test. I can have kava tested for known compounds, so I did. It tested noble, twice, and again, no kava with a tested noble chemotype has ever proven to not actually be noble.

I know that some kavas have been adulterated, and I am even concerned that at some point some other kava varieties have snuck their way into some that I sell. The 11 Year Waka is not one that I'm concerned about. This kava has been tested more extensively than any that I've seen and no test that identifies known substances have ever shown it to be anything but 100% noble. This goes along with anecdotal information such as the fact that there is no tudei growing on the island where this comes from. There are also no middle men in the sale of this kava. In Vanuatu, the middle men are responsible for adulteration. That's impossible in this case.

Please know that I'm doing everything I can to ensure we continue to have some of the best quality kava out there. That is very important to me.
 

ObiWan

May the Brew be with you
I am more and more confused. What is the main goal of this discussion? To proof that the 11yo Waka is noble? Or to proof that the Aceton test either gives false results or is always right?

I try to summarize what I understand and what I wonder:

Altough it is a Fijian Kava, Judd says that it was tested in Dr. Lebot's lab at Vanuatu Agriculture. But it seems that a 'technician' and not Dr. Lebot himself made the test. The test result is said to be 'noble' and 'yellow', while even Judd thinks it should be 'noble' and 'orange' . Judd has not posted a test document until now.
There are obviosly two labs in Vanuatu, only one of them by Dr. Lebot. Judd posted the adress of "Ministry of Trade and Business Food Technology Development Centre". Is this the same as "Vanuatu Agriculture" lab? And in which way is Dr. Lebot involved? How does it happen that Vanuatu tested a Fijian Kava? Who ordered this test and paid for it? How did they get the Kava, and did they get exactly the same batch that both Deleted User and Judd tested as being 'orange'?
Is there any document from a Fiji authority?
Vanuatu is a third world country. Who does the tests? Scientists or semi-skilled officers? Are they educated enough and have the right equipment?
My speculation: The guys in the Agriculture lab (or girls, Chris mentioned a 'Ruth') have seen Dr. Lebots demonstration of the Aceton test like he presents it in his youtube video. In this, each result was either clear yellow, deep orange or brown because Dr. Lebot didn't test addicted Kava. The video doesn't give a clear advise about the ratio of Kava : Aceton. My own test showed that it is possible to get an orange looking even with noble Kava (when you use not enough Aceton) and a yellow looking with a known ISA (when you use too much Aceton. ) Deleted User says that this effects only brightness but not the hue, altough it is difficult to distinguish it. Do the guys or girls in the Vanuatu lab know this? Which ratio did they use? Which is their colour range to clarify a Kava as yellow? Do they have any colometric table? Or do they simply guess if it looks more yellow or orange?

I think that Dr. Lebot should get the same batch that Deleted User used for testing, and then test it with the Aceton method. If it is pure noble it should be yellow. If it is orange (as even Judd says) and Dr. Lebot cannot test the chemotype in his own lab because his equipment is broken, he should contact the guys in the other Vanuatu lab (who tested the Kava as noble) and use their lab. If he comes to the same result as they, which means that a noble Kava is orange, than Dr. Lebot has a problem!

It must be possible to get clarity on those simple questions instead of repeating the same arguments again and again.
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
I am more and more confused. What is the main goal of this discussion? To proof that the 11yo Waka is noble? Or to proof that the Aceton test either gives false results or is always right?

I try to summarize what I understand and what I wonder:

Altough it is a Fijian Kava, Judd says that it was tested in Dr. Lebot's lab at Vanuatu Agriculture. But it seems that a 'technician' and not Dr. Lebot himself made the test. The test result is said to be 'noble' and 'yellow', while even Judd thinks it should be 'noble' and 'orange' . Judd has not posted a test document until now.
There are obviosly two labs in Vanuatu, only one of them by Dr. Lebot. Judd posted the adress of "Ministry of Trade and Business Food Technology Development Centre". Is this the same as "Vanuatu Agriculture" lab? And in which way is Dr. Lebot involved? How does it happen that Vanuatu tested a Fijian Kava? Who ordered this test and paid for it? How did they get the Kava, and did they get exactly the same batch that both Deleted User and Judd tested as being 'orange'?
Is there any document from a Fiji authority?
Vanuatu is a third world country. Who does the tests? Scientists or semi-skilled officers? Are they educated enough and have the right equipment?
My speculation: The guys in the Agriculture lab (or girls, Chris mentioned a 'Ruth') have seen Dr. Lebots demonstration of the Aceton test like he presents it in his youtube video. In this, each result was either clear yellow, deep orange or brown because Dr. Lebot didn't test addicted Kava. The video doesn't give a clear advise about the ratio of Kava : Aceton. My own test showed that it is possible to get an orange looking even with noble Kava (when you use not enough Aceton) and a yellow looking with a known ISA (when you use too much Aceton. ) Deleted User says that this effects only brightness but not the hue, altough it is difficult to distinguish it. Do the guys or girls in the Vanuatu lab know this? Which ratio did they use? Which is their colour range to clarify a Kava as yellow? Do they have any colometric table? Or do they simply guess if it looks more yellow or orange?

I think that Dr. Lebot should get the same batch that Deleted User used for testing, and then test it with the Aceton method. If it is pure noble it should be yellow. If it is orange (as even Judd says) and Dr. Lebot cannot test the chemotype in his own lab because his equipment is broken, he should contact the guys in the other Vanuatu lab (who tested the Kava as noble) and use their lab. If he comes to the same result as they, which means that a noble Kava is orange, than Dr. Lebot has a problem!

It must be possible to get clarity on those simple questions instead of repeating the same arguments again and again.
I am only proving that this particular kava is noble.

Lebot put the testing protocol in place at the Ministry of Trade... lab. They are the only Vanuatu lab that gives a noble or tudei stamp.

I have another sample in to them and am very much looking forward to results. I also encourage anyone else with the means to send samples in of any kava they question for either this test or an HPLC test for chemotype.
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
@Judd Rench - I read it. I still have no clue where you are getting 463251, that's not what your COA says.
As I said, a second, more recent test. Same kava variety, different plant. I've been requesting lots of tests and making huge efforts to ensure quality control. How about a little appreciation for my efforts instead of questioning every little thing.
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
I am more and more confused. What is the main goal of this discussion? To proof that the 11yo Waka is noble? Or to proof that the Aceton test either gives false results or is always right?

I try to summarize what I understand and what I wonder:

Altough it is a Fijian Kava, Judd says that it was tested in Dr. Lebot's lab at Vanuatu Agriculture. But it seems that a 'technician' and not Dr. Lebot himself made the test. The test result is said to be 'noble' and 'yellow', while even Judd thinks it should be 'noble' and 'orange' . Judd has not posted a test document until now.
There are obviosly two labs in Vanuatu, only one of them by Dr. Lebot. Judd posted the adress of "Ministry of Trade and Business Food Technology Development Centre". Is this the same as "Vanuatu Agriculture" lab? And in which way is Dr. Lebot involved? How does it happen that Vanuatu tested a Fijian Kava? Who ordered this test and paid for it? How did they get the Kava, and did they get exactly the same batch that both Deleted User and Judd tested as being 'orange'?
Is there any document from a Fiji authority?
Vanuatu is a third world country. Who does the tests? Scientists or semi-skilled officers? Are they educated enough and have the right equipment?
My speculation: The guys in the Agriculture lab (or girls, Chris mentioned a 'Ruth') have seen Dr. Lebots demonstration of the Aceton test like he presents it in his youtube video. In this, each result was either clear yellow, deep orange or brown because Dr. Lebot didn't test addicted Kava. The video doesn't give a clear advise about the ratio of Kava : Aceton. My own test showed that it is possible to get an orange looking even with noble Kava (when you use not enough Aceton) and a yellow looking with a known ISA (when you use too much Aceton. ) Deleted User says that this effects only brightness but not the hue, altough it is difficult to distinguish it. Do the guys or girls in the Vanuatu lab know this? Which ratio did they use? Which is their colour range to clarify a Kava as yellow? Do they have any colometric table? Or do they simply guess if it looks more yellow or orange?

I think that Dr. Lebot should get the same batch that Deleted User used for testing, and then test it with the Aceton method. If it is pure noble it should be yellow. If it is orange (as even Judd says) and Dr. Lebot cannot test the chemotype in his own lab because his equipment is broken, he should contact the guys in the other Vanuatu lab (who tested the Kava as noble) and use their lab. If he comes to the same result as they, which means that a noble Kava is orange, than Dr. Lebot has a problem!

It must be possible to get clarity on those simple questions instead of repeating the same arguments again and again.
Sounds like "Mystery Murder Theater" or "Who Shot J.R.?". :D
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
Ok, this must be what you are referring to. But there's a problem - 463251 and 432561 are not "consistent" at all, this is a significant variation.

In addition, your blog states the actual cultivar to be “Loa Kasa Balavu”. The only precedent we have is Lebot's papers, which shows a chemotype of 642351 for that cultivar, which is not even close to either of the ones you have claimed. His data was collected ~1989, your kava was planted ~2003, and eleven years is not enough for a somatic mutation, that's been confirmed.

Now you see why I'm confused. None of your data matches up.
These chemotype differences are in fact minor. I actually know quite a bit about kava, testing, and results. You could send a sample of kava from a part of a kava plant to a lab for testing, then send another sample in from a slightly different part of the plant a week later and get an entirely different chemotype. Kavalactone percentages vary from plant to plant, year to year, part of plant to part of plant. Furthermore, there can be slight variations in testing as well. Just like one thermometer may read 98.6, and another may read 98.8.

If sample one contains readings of 2.7 kavain, 1.9 yangonin, and 1.8 DHK, chemotype will be 432xxx. If sample number 2 reads 2.6 kavain, 1.5 DHK, 1.9 Yangonin, but also has 2.0 Methysticin, chemotype will be 4632xx. You see these are actually very close numbers, and the differences can easily be explained by testing variance, plant age, part of plant tested, and differences among individual plants, just like tomatoes from one plant can vary in sweetness from those on a plant of the exact same variety. These are also numbers from each test we have for 11 Year Waka. Your buddy Dr. Lebot can confirm that this type of variance is possible. If you don't believe my tests, send some in yourself.

As for the reported kava cultivar, Fijian kava is notoriously hard to identify by variety. They just don't care about the name the same way they do in places like Vanuatu or Hawaii. This is why retail Fijian kava is almost always simply sold as "Waka" or "Lawena". Take that and combine it with dialects of different communities and word of mouth travelling from island to island with no formal record thousands of years ago, and you can see how there is a possibility that somewhere along the line, someone was told the name of a kava that wasn't correct. That could very well be true for the sample in Dr. Lebot's book. In any case a .1 or .2 here or there would make the 11 Year Waka the same as what is reported by Dr. Lebot. It's also worth noting that Dr. Lebot reported his chemotypes 25 years ago. Actual tests were likely done even beyond that. To assume that there would be zero variance since then is ridiculous.

The 11 Year Waka was planted when the island where it was grown was purchased. Records were not kept as to which variety was planted. When the owner decided to start selling it he brought in a botanist to oversee it. The botanist reviewed any information he could and came to the conclusion that he thought it was Loa Kasa Balavu. It is speculation, but it's possible that the kava in question is not actually Loa Kasa Balavu, but is a closely related noble cultivar. Because many kava plants look almost identical, this theory is not far fetched. There is a plant from the same region known as Vula Kasa Balavu that looks almost identical, from what I gather. It had, when tested in 1989, a kavalactone content of 462315, very close to current results. Again, the idea that the 11 Year Waka could actually be that cultivar is speculation but is nonetheless quite possible.

I'm not so concerned with names of Fijian kava at this point. The tests show noble and that's the most important thing to me and the vast majority of my customers.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
Altough it is a Fijian Kava, Judd says that it was tested in Dr. Lebot's lab at Vanuatu Agriculture. But it seems that a 'technician' and not Dr. Lebot himself made the test.
Dr. Lebot did not do the testing for Judd.

There are obviosly two labs in Vanuatu, only one of them by Dr. Lebot. Judd posted the adress of "Ministry of Trade and Business Food Technology Development Centre". Is this the same as "Vanuatu Agriculture" lab? And in which way is Dr. Lebot involved?

Dr. Lebot's lab was not involved in this matter, not was Dr. Lebot involved in the test. They are two different labs.


How does it happen that Vanuatu tested a Fijian Kava? Who ordered this test and paid for it? How did they get the Kava, and did they get exactly the same batch that both Deleted User and Judd tested as being 'orange'?

These are good questions still unanswered.


Vanuatu is a third world country. Who does the tests? Scientists or semi-skilled officers? Are they educated enough and have the right equipment?

Yes they have good enough equipment and they are educated enough to use it, Ruth Amos is the one who has credentials and does the testing.


My speculation: The guys in the Agriculture lab (or girls, Chris mentioned a 'Ruth') have seen Dr. Lebots demonstration of the Aceton test like he presents it in his youtube video. In this, each result was either clear yellow, deep orange or brown because Dr. Lebot didn't test addicted Kava. The video doesn't give a clear advise about the ratio of Kava : Aceton. My own test showed that it is possible to get an orange looking even with noble Kava (when you use not enough Aceton) and a yellow looking with a known ISA (when you use too much Aceton. ) Deleted User says that this effects only brightness but not the hue, altough it is difficult to distinguish it. Do the guys or girls in the Vanuatu lab know this? Which ratio did they use? Which is their colour range to clarify a Kava as yellow? Do they have any colometric table? Or do they simply guess if it looks more yellow or orange?
I do not know how they do the acetone test in Vanuatu but I am sure that they do it like Deleted User does, the equipment used is not that expensive and is easy to get. I would not think that they would do the acetone test like Dr Lebot shows on his video, that video was meant for people who do not have the right test equipment and it is very important to use the right amount of kava and acetone and to have a standard to compare it to.

I think that Dr. Lebot should get the same batch that Deleted User used for testing, and then test it with the Aceton method. If it is pure noble it should be yellow. If it is orange (as even Judd says) and Dr. Lebot cannot test the chemotype in his own lab because his equipment is broken, he should contact the guys in the other Vanuatu lab (who tested the Kava as noble) and use their lab. If he comes to the same result as they, which means that a noble Kava is orange, than Dr. Lebot has a problem!
I agree that Dr. Lebot should get a sample of Judd's 11 year old kava that produced the orange color but I know that Dr. Lebot does not do testing for people, he is under contract and busy so not only is time a factor but they are not a lab like "Ministry of Trade and Business Food Technology Development Center" Dr. Lebot's lab is run by a different entity.
Another note of great importance is that Dr Lebot's equipment is NOT broken, he is using it right now to do some testing on a project he is working on. If there were a problem with Dr Lebot's method of testing with the acetone test he would have made it known to all that use it but he has not done this and the last time I talked to him was yesterday so this is all accurate and up to date information.
This entire thing can be confusing I know but rest assured that Judd and others are trying to get to the bottom of things so we can find out what is really going on, weather the acetone test is good or not and all other things involved with this topic. I hope this helps a bit, aloha.

Chris
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
Incorrect, Chris. Lebot is the one who put the protocol in place at the Ministry of Trade lab. He is the one who decided what would be labeled noble and what would be labeled tudei. Dr. Lebot was most definitely involved. They are the only lab in Vanuatu that commercially tests and stamps tudei or noble. Dr. Lebot is the only person using the algorithm for determining tudei or noble. His involvement is necessary.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
Incorrect, Chris. Lebot is the one who put the protocol in place at the Ministry of Trade lab. He is the one who decided what would be labeled noble and what would be labeled tudei. Dr. Lebot was most definitely involved. They are the only lab in Vanuatu that commercially tests and stamps tudei or noble. Dr. Lebot is the only person using the algorithm for determining tudei or noble. His involvement is necessary.
I think you misunderstand me, I was correct in all my statements. I know that Dr Lebot put the protocol in place and what not but I also know he was not involved in testing your kava, that is what I said or meant to say, what ever way you took it was wrong. Everyone knows that Lebot made the standards. There is Dr. Lebot's lab and then there is the Ministry of Trade lab, that makes 2 labs. One does testing for the farmers and people like you and me and then Lebot's lab is for research and study.
Aloha.

Chris
 
D

Deleted User01

I just read Chris's complete post and Dr. Lebot told Chris that he did not test your Kava because he is under "contract" on another project. Chris said he talked to him yesterday whatever Lebot told him should be right and up to date.
 
D

Deleted User01

Hey Chris, can you get Dr. Lebot to make a guest appearance and clear this all up. It's time to "wrap it up".
 
Top