New 11 Year Waka (Micronized)

[Bula Kava House]

Deleted User: If the 11-year Waka ends up having a verifiable noble chemotype and an FK/KL ratio, then what will you say? Will this be enough to be considered the landmark event that you spoke of?

This already happened. I have an HPLC test showing a noble chemotype and a test from the lab in Vanuatu showing a low FK/KL ratio.

 

[Bula Kava House]

No, this would not be a landmark event. You're still missing the point, which is the validity of the acetone test. If the Vanuatu COA showed noble chemotype, noble FK/KL ratio AND orange qualitative test, that would qualify. At that point, I expect Dr. Lebot would investigate, since such an event would call the validity of the acetone test into question. I also expect he would provide an explanation, and/or recommend use of the acetone test be suspended.

It's simple, really. I could throw out the acetone test based on Judd's claims, but Vanuatu doesn't even agree with him. It makes a lot more sense to get that directive from the source of the test.

What would you do?

It should be a landmark event to you. You've acetone tested the 11 Year Waka yourself. If we get a second confirmation from the lab that the 11 Year Waka is noble, you can cross reference that with the qualitative test you did. Also if you review my previous post, you'll see my point that recent Vanuatu CoAs have not included the acetone test, so I doubt the samples I recently sent in will either.

You're wrong about the lab not agreeing with me. It doesn't agree with itself, or you. The FK/KL ratio is .3xx, well under the 1.00 designation for tudei, and is labeled noble. I didn't do the tests, so we're not asking the lab in Vanuatu to agree with me at all. All I've been doing is stating actual results from tests that you and the lab in Vanuatu have done. If you've got someone to disagree with it's Lebot's lab in Vanuatu.

And regarding us having civil communication moving forward. Don't count on it. That went out the door when you started questioning my integrity by saying my results aren't valid because I have a "vested interest".

 

[Bula Kava House]

It isn't a matter of integrity, it's a matter of seeing things the way you want to see them. We're all subject to it, you've accused me of the same in your statement "You're not fooling anyone when you say you don't care if the acetone test proves to be trustworthy. " in post #203.

"Vested interest": a personal stake or involvement in an undertaking or state of affairs, especially one with an expectation of financial gain.

The concept of independent testing is far from new, and practiced in nearly every industry. Ford doesn't get all insulted when the NHTSA tests their cars, and the local supermarket doesn't call foul when the Dept of Ag shows up to test the fat content of their hamburger. They realize their own vested interest, and that their customers value these independent tests.

Testing for kava hasn't reached that level of sophistication yet, but that is our shared goal. You're not Ford, and I'm not the NHTSA, that's for sure. But I do believe our collective efforts here on this Forum of seeking information, comparing experiences, consulting experts, conducting tests, and advocating for better quality kava in general has had an effect on the industry that will be positive in the long run, however painful you may find it in the short term.

This has been coming since 2002, when Vanuatu realized that quality control was mandatory and passed the Kava Act. Twelve years later they still haven't worked all the bugs out, and neither have we - but we're both a lot closer, and we're not going to make it happen by getting insulted or ignoring the problem.

If you want to slam the door because you feel your integrity has been questioned, go ahead. I'm not in this effort to make friends with vendors, though I certainly have. I'm in it because I believe in kava, I know the help it can bring to the many in need, and I want it to stay legal. With that as my goal, my door remains open to all.

Garry

I know what vested interest means (being condescending makes you look petty), and just because I have it, doesn't mean I'm not reliable or honest. Don't try to turn this around on me, like I'm the one holding up progress. If you want to talk, be respectful. You questioning my integrity and honesty when I gave you no reason to do so is not respectful. That's on you.

Sure there's independent testing in other industries, but if a company shows me results from a known and trusted lab, I don't assume they're lying, especially when those results agree with results from other labs, and geographical information. I encourage your independent testing, in fact, I beg you to do it, but test for a known substance. Use the same trusted labs and/or techniques that I have presented if you don't believe Dr. Lebot's lab's results. In other words, put your money where your mouth is.

The 11 Year Waka has a known noble chemotype as tested by HPLC at the University of Suva. No kava with a noble chemotype has ever tested to be a tudei. It has a low FK/KL ratio, and was stamped NOBLE by the lab at the Department of Agriculture in Vanuatu. Most drinkers also confirm noble like effects. The writing is on the wall.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

Use the same trusted labs and/or techniques that I have presented if you don't believe Dr. Lebot's lab's results.

So does this mean that Dr. Lebot did the testing for you in his lab or was it the lab in Vanuatu where Ruth works?

Chris

 

[Bula Kava House]

Ministry of Trade and Business Food Technology Development Centre
Phone number is 25978

You may want to call them first but the address to send samples to is:
PMB 9056
Port Vila, Vanuatu

 

[Steve973]

You're still missing the point, which is the validity of the acetone test. If the Vanuatu COA showed noble chemotype, noble FK/KL ratio AND orange qualitative test, that would qualify. At that point, I expect Dr. Lebot would investigate, since such an event would call the validity of the acetone test into question. I also expect he would provide an explanation, and/or recommend use of the acetone test be suspended.

That was precisely what I asked, so I'm not missing the point. So it seems that this is already the case. Judd said, "I have an HPLC test showing a noble chemotype and a test from the lab in Vanuatu showing a low FK/KL ratio." The vials show orange. What about this doesn't meet your criteria? Do you have any reason to distrust the university lab?

 

[Bula Kava House]

@Deleted User keeps either forgetting or avoiding that there is also an HPLC test from a different lab showing a noble chemotype. No kava with a noble chemotype has ever proved to be a tudei. The Vanuatu FK/KL result agrees with the HPLC from Suva. If the HPLC result had shown a known tudei chemotype, I would be more willing to assume the entire Vanuatu results are a mistake. This is not the case though. Chemotype measures actual known compounds, and has never produced a false positive or negative. It's complete science. The only reason the acetone test was ever needed and developed in the first place was because not everyone has the ability to run HPLC, including Dr. Lebot who's equipment broke. My suppliers and I do have that ability, so we did. The results speak for themselves, and they agree with flavokavain levels, geographical information, and the vast majority of drinker experience.

 

[HeadHodge]

.....I have had offers of free product and have declined them. I have not consumed a single ounce of any sample sent to me, nor will I in the future.....

That's true. However, for a wee small kava fee, I promise not to tell anyone what it is you have done.

 

[Bula Kava House]

I know this must have come up at some point, but what is the chemotype? I think all we have is the COA Tyler posted, and I don't recall it being mentioned here.

463251. Doesn't get much more noble than that.

 

[HeadHodge]

@HeadHodge - you get nothing, I'll tell: I set Kona Kava on fire (yes, it burns just like incense) and inadvertently inhaled. It was not pleasant.

But do we need to have a kavaforums intervention to get you to quit??? (I'm just worried for you that's all....)

 

[Deleted User01]

The only indicator of noble status would be the COA from the University of the South Pacific, Suva, Fiji, which is on the last page in their pdf. This shows a chemotype of 432561, and a KL content of 9.1%, an odd chemotype...

"Loa Kasa Balavu" is mentioned in Dr. Lebot's research, a sample was taken from Vanua Levu, Fiji around 1990. It is classified in morphotype "Group I", with a chemotype of 642315. This cultivar is also mentioned specifically in the Codex Alimentarius discussion paper as a current noble cultivar, so it is still grown. But the chemotype listed in BKH's report is not consistent with that cultivar, or any in morphotype group "I".

So the above was posted back when. I see chemotypes of 432561 and 642315. Judd just posted chemotype of 463251. FYI, 463251 is a popular Hawaiian Chemotype which you will find on Honokane Iki, Moi, Nene, and Papa Ele Ele Puu Puu.

 

[Bula Kava House]

The chemotype 463251 was from the first test sample of this kava. It was sent before I began selling it. The chemotype I recently posted is from a sample sent for testing about a month or so ago. The chemotypes between samples were very close, within .1 or .2, so they are consistent. It is well known that due to minor testing variance, plant age, part of the plant tested, among a few other factors, there will be some variance. Whatever the case may be, test results are clearly noble.

 

[Deleted User01]

Agreed, 463251 is a noble chemotype found in many noble kavas. No argument there. I'm just trying to get my head around why the 11 year old had such an odd color. Almost brownish. Not the nice light yellow color that we normally associate with a Noble Kava. I think we will find out more down the road as some of these mysteries start to unravel. I'm sure you have already talked to your wholesaler about the whole testing thing and there is always a possibility that the newer batches from him could test a lot better. The theory is that the wholesalers/farmers are blending the kava without the knowledge of the Kava retailers. The theory would infer that the blending would stop once the whistle was blown. Just thought I would throw that out there for discussion.