New 11 Year Waka (Micronized)

[Steve973]

Sorry you feel this way. Goodbye.

I think that this fighting and arguing is shameful. Kava is all about a pleasant experience, and tradition, and community, etc. The arguing is about as anti-well-being as anything could be around here. Judd goes out of his way to produce a great product and to stand behind it, while reaching out to the community and to be available to all of his customers. A few, but not many, vendors actually do this.
Deleted User, it is my impression that you are the antagonist in the preceding confrontation. You insist that something must be wrong or dishonest, and he is addressing your concerns with what he knows each time. I feel that he was extraordinarily patient and open-minded, while still sharing everything that he knows about his 11-year kava. Perhaps you could have offered to work together, or at least to be a bit less condescending.
Unless you have empirical proof about what precisely causes the colors in the vials, then this method is and, at this point, can only be a theory. I am in no way discounting your work and effort, and it is always good to attempt to further knowledge and understanding. However, it seems that we are only at the correlation stage. Correlation is often reliable, but it is absolutely not causation. For this reason, causing trouble over it is in bad taste. I recommend that everyone collaborate until the science is solid and definitive. At this point, I think your communication with Judd was less than gracious, and probably shameful.

 

[ApéroNoble]

I think that this fighting and arguing is shameful. Kava is all about a pleasant experience, and tradition, and community, etc. The arguing is about as anti-well-being as anything could be around here. Judd goes out of his way to produce a great product and to stand behind it, while reaching out to the community and to be available to all of his customers. A few, but not many, vendors actually do this.
Deleted User, it is my impression that you are the antagonist in the preceding confrontation. You insist that something must be wrong or dishonest, and he is addressing your concerns with what he knows each time. I feel that he was extraordinarily patient and open-minded, while still sharing everything that he knows about his 11-year kava. Perhaps you could have offered to work together, or at least to be a bit less condescending.
Unless you have empirical proof about what precisely causes the colors in the vials, then this method is and, at this point, can only be a theory. I am in no way discounting your work and effort, and it is always good to attempt to further knowledge and understanding. However, it seems that we are only at the correlation stage. Correlation is often reliable, but it is absolutely not causation. For this reason, causing trouble over it is in bad taste. I recommend that everyone collaborate until the science is solid and definitive. At this point, I think your communication with Judd was less than gracious, and probably shameful.

If it were not for the collaboration of a select few taking their personal time for no profit whatsoever, we'd still be in the dark ages of kava. Which was no longer than last year. This has nothing to do with Judd.

 

[Cosler]

Welcome to the Forum! I'm glad you like the 11 Year Waka, perhaps BKH needs more customers like you.

I'm curious, how do you "accidentally" consume kava?

LOL so I'm not too savvy with cups and tablespoons and teaspoons, etc etc etc... and I was very hungover from a friends birthday bar crawl last night. So all I can find is a quarter cup measuring cup. In my mind, it's like: "Well this seems like two tablespoons per 1/4 cup." Then my girlfriend comes home and I'm stumbling around and apparently my eyes were dilated (BTW has anyone experienced that side-effect, I have yet to read about that any where?) and I ask her, "how many tablespoons are in a 1/4 cup?" To which she answered, 4 tablespoons, which is actually just above the recommended dosage and what I would usually take, just a tad over the status quo. But no my hazy mind, plagued by last night's tequila shots had me thinking half a cup looked about right. Anyways, WOW did it hit me hard. It felt nice, I just went back to sleep. But that was after I puked and fell flat on my face when standing up from the dining room table.

All-in-All, I've been experimenting with Kava for about three weeks now (as I just graduated, I feel like this is a good recreational substance to mess around with while starting a professional career) and I've now experienced all levels of the high. I've had that mild, mild buzz at the Kava Bar. I've had that heavy, sleepy buzz from instant Kava shots at another Kava Bar and I've also had that almost speedy buzz from consuming small amounts of instant BKH multiple times over the course of 1.5-2hrs. Now I finally got that kick in the... what's the right word.. well I got messed up on it. But that's because I took 400% the recommended dosage, which was a poor idea yet totally unconscious!

Still, every experience is good and at least I learned my lessons: ALWAYS TRUST BKH, THEY'RE VERY LEGIT and DON'T BE SO LAZY THAT YOU DISREGARD THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE!

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I just wanted to take this time to say a few things about this acetone test. There are things that we know for a fact, we know for a fact that Noble kava does not have the molecule that will cause the orange or brown color. This is not in dispute among kava experts and leaders. I do not think Deleted User is trying to single out Judd or anyone, he is just showing his results that Dr Lebot has seen and agrees with, Dr Lebot has approved with Harpos methodology and his results. If they guy from kava dot com were here instead of Judd then I am sure they would be going on just like Judd and Deleted User was, but it is not about one vendor, it is about kava and how to tell if it is Noble or not.
The only reason that Deleted User was saying these things is because Judd would keep responding and Deleted User would reply to his response. Maybe there might have been a better way for them to communicate but that still is not the problem. The problem is that there was a color change in the acetone test and if it is not from tudei kava then it makes one wonder what it could be since we know Noble kava does not make it that color. One might even ask is there something else that was added to the kava that might cause this, again we know that pure Noble will not have this color. It might be something simple like some Turmeric was accidentally added or the kava was processed in a machine that also processed some other herb or something. The test results from Deleted User is not meant to cause trouble it is for us to use to make an informed choice as to what we want to drink.
I do not like all this fighting either but I do know from personal experience that Judd can be temperamental and I still have the emails to show how he can get, all I can say is I did not know there were so many words in the book, I know my mom and dad would have washed my mouth out with soap if I said things like that. So to sum it up we have 2 people that is passionate for kava, one, Deleted User is trying to get the standard of quality up so we can see if we have a good drinking kava or a tudei kava, the other Judd is just trying to defend his position and trying to figure out a problem that is not his fault, it is the fault of the farmers in Vanuatu and the authorities that are supposed to stop the export of the Tudei kava.
I love the work that Deleted User is doing and I do believe that it is accurate, I also truly believe that Judd is trying his best to get this thing straightened out so that he is selling pure Noble kava. This entire tudei mixed with Noble thing has just come out and all the vendors need to have time to work things out with there suppliers. Judd is doing this and that is great but I also think it is great that Deleted User is still doing his testing because it is a good simple test for people that can not afford a more expensive test.
So with all that said lets all give credit to Judd for his efforts to getting this mess fixed and actually taking part in the forums again even though he does seem to be attacked sometimes, thank you Judd for coming back.
Lets also give credit to Deleted User for doing all this hard work on the acetone testing, it takes time effort and money to do this and I for one am glad to see him doing this, it is way more precise than a jar with kava and acetone for us folks at home, and when we do not have a known Noble or tudei to compare it to then it is even harder, that is why I like harpos test, it give a number that we can see.
Lets all drink the kava that we like and relax and enjoy the fact that it is still legal for us to drink, lets try to keep it that way by commending the efforts people like Judd and Deleted User.
Aloha to all.

Chris

 

[Bula Kava House]

I just wanted to take this time to say a few things about this acetone test. There are things that we know for a fact, we know for a fact that Noble kava does not have the molecule that will cause the orange or brown color. This is not in dispute among kava experts and leaders. I do not think Deleted User is trying to single out Judd or anyone, he is just showing his results that Dr Lebot has seen and agrees with, Dr Lebot has approved with Harpos methodology and his results. If they guy from kava dot com were here instead of Judd then I am sure they would be going on just like Judd and Deleted User was, but it is not about one vendor, it is about kava and how to tell if it is Noble or not.
The only reason that Deleted User was saying these things is because Judd would keep responding and Deleted User would reply to his response. Maybe there might have been a better way for them to communicate but that still is not the problem. The problem is that there was a color change in the acetone test and if it is not from tudei kava then it makes one wonder what it could be since we know Noble kava does not make it that color. One might even ask is there something else that was added to the kava that might cause this, again we know that pure Noble will not have this color. It might be something simple like some Turmeric was accidentally added or the kava was processed in a machine that also processed some other herb or something. The test results from Deleted User is not meant to cause trouble it is for us to use to make an informed choice as to what we want to drink.
I do not like all this fighting either but I do know from personal experience that Judd can be temperamental and I still have the emails to show how he can get, all I can say is I did not know there were so many words in the book, I know my mom and dad would have washed my mouth out with soap if I said things like that. So to sum it up we have 2 people that is passionate for kava, one, Deleted User is trying to get the standard of quality up so we can see if we have a good drinking kava or a tudei kava, the other Judd is just trying to defend his position and trying to figure out a problem that is not his fault, it is the fault of the farmers in Vanuatu and the authorities that are supposed to stop the export of the Tudei kava.
I love the work that Deleted User is doing and I do believe that it is accurate, I also truly believe that Judd is trying his best to get this thing straightened out so that he is selling pure Noble kava. This entire tudei mixed with Noble thing has just come out and all the vendors need to have time to work things out with there suppliers. Judd is doing this and that is great but I also think it is great that Deleted User is still doing his testing because it is a good simple test for people that can not afford a more expensive test.
So with all that said lets all give credit to Judd for his efforts to getting this mess fixed and actually taking part in the forums again even though he does seem to be attacked sometimes, thank you Judd for coming back.
Lets also give credit to Deleted User for doing all this hard work on the acetone testing, it takes time effort and money to do this and I for one am glad to see him doing this, it is way more precise than a jar with kava and acetone for us folks at home, and when we do not have a known Noble or tudei to compare it to then it is even harder, that is why I like harpos test, it give a number that we can see.
Lets all drink the kava that we like and relax and enjoy the fact that it is still legal for us to drink, lets try to keep it that way by commending the efforts people like Judd and Deleted User.
Aloha to all.

Chris

Sorry, gotta reply. As much as I SHOULD stay away, it's hard to be mum when people talk negatively about you, and your business that you take pride in in a public forum.

Temperamental? Like when you wrote that you'd put me "on the ground", or "in the dirt"? Maybe your parents should have talked to you about physical threats to your fellow humans. I guess there was some complimentary stuff in your reply too, so thanks, I guess.

Unfortunately, the test isn't 100%. I have chemotype test results and FK/KL results from Vanuatu that prove that this particular kava, that makes for an orange acetone test, is noble. The tests I've done are what the acetone test attempts to confirm. I've done everything I can do to show people what this kava is, and what is in it. If anyone doesn't want to believe me because I have a "vested interest" then they should send an independent sample in for the same testing.

*Edit- After re-reading Chris's post, there are more valid compliments than I originally gave credit for. Honestly, thank you. Let's just not talk about "temperamental" personal interactions because you were no peach.

 

[Bula Kava House]

I think that this fighting and arguing is shameful. Kava is all about a pleasant experience, and tradition, and community, etc. The arguing is about as anti-well-being as anything could be around here. Judd goes out of his way to produce a great product and to stand behind it, while reaching out to the community and to be available to all of his customers. A few, but not many, vendors actually do this.
Deleted User, it is my impression that you are the antagonist in the preceding confrontation. You insist that something must be wrong or dishonest, and he is addressing your concerns with what he knows each time. I feel that he was extraordinarily patient and open-minded, while still sharing everything that he knows about his 11-year kava. Perhaps you could have offered to work together, or at least to be a bit less condescending.
Unless you have empirical proof about what precisely causes the colors in the vials, then this method is and, at this point, can only be a theory. I am in no way discounting your work and effort, and it is always good to attempt to further knowledge and understanding. However, it seems that we are only at the correlation stage. Correlation is often reliable, but it is absolutely not causation. For this reason, causing trouble over it is in bad taste. I recommend that everyone collaborate until the science is solid and definitive. At this point, I think your communication with Judd was less than gracious, and probably shameful.

Thank you! I really am trying to be the best vendor I can be. Ask my employees, my theory has always been that the customers is at the top of the ladder, my employees next, then me just doing everything I can to give my employees everything they need to successfully serve customers. I bring this theory to quality control as well. I would never lie or give incorrect information because that would do nothing to serve my customers. I appreciate the support.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Welcome to the Forum! I'm glad you like the 11 Year Waka, perhaps BKH needs more customers like you.

I'm curious, how do you "accidentally" consume kava?

As much as we always appreciate new customers, we actually have a hard time keeping this kava in stock. We are sold out at the moment. It's quite popular and most people love it.

 

[Thom Yorke]

Well I might be a newbie to the forum, but I am quite experienced with kava and though i'm not a daily user I have been using it for around 15 years. I find all of this talk about noble & tudei kavas quite fascinating. Ive had kavas that are known to be tudei (unknown to me at the time) and all have made me nauseous, VERY hungover, and gave me intense bowl movements. About 10 years ago I got a kilo straight from Vanuatu from someone who was well respected in the kava world at the time and the stuff was worse than anything ive ever had.... i was laid out for two days.....im certain that poison HAD to be tudei. Anyway I 'm getting some of this 11 year Waka from BKH when its back in stock and this thread has inspired me to conduct my own tests with a good mate of mine who is a Dr of Biochemistry. Not sure when we'll have time to get time to get together to do this, but I will report her findings afterwards. I will also do a review because I will be trying it sometime in the next couple of weeks.

 

[HeadHodge]

....Ive had kavas that are known to be tudei (unknown to me at the time) and all have made me nauseous, VERY hungover, and gave me intense bowl movements.....

Exactly a point I try to make. The effects of tudei are fairly well known and I do have a "little" bit of experience with tudei's myself. But the 11-year old waka exhibits none of these tudei like effects for me. Which makes me wonder, in an anecdotal way, why this is so??

 

[verticity]

OK, as a sometime customer I know Judd is reputable vendor, so I don't mean at all to suggest he or anybody did anything nefarious, but I'm genuinely confused about what is going on.
First, people who have tried it say the 11 year does not have tudei effects. But, it tests orange in the acetone test, verified independently by different people. But it has a low FK/KL ratio indicating it is not tudei. But the test results from Vanuatu say it tested yellow on the acetone test. So there are some glaring contradictions here. If I were the one who ordered the test, and got the result saying it tested yellow, when I know it tests orange, I would wonder if Dr. Lebot's lab mixed up the sample with something else or something, which does call into question the validity of the FK/KL test result. If that were me, I would contact that lab and ask what's up with that. I think Dr. Lebot would be really interested to know that there is a noble kava that tests orange on the acetone test, if that is truly the case here.
Edit: So I realized that it was the Vanuatu dept. of Ag that did the yellow acetone test, not Dr. Lebot's lab. Different entities. Nonetheless, I am really curious what Dr. Lebot has to say about this apparent contradiction.

 

[verticity]

@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava - Maybe it is turmeric. Kava curry anyone?

 

[Steve973]

"There are things that we know for a fact, we know for a fact that Noble kava does not have the molecule that will cause the orange or brown color." -- This is only an accurate statement if you can identify this molecule, and demonstrate how it imparts color. Then you can test for the molecule to ensure that this correlation is, indeed, causation. Let's not abandon the scientific method, please. Once you have done that, then you can look into why this molecule is "bad" (however you wish to define it in this context).

"This is not in dispute among kava experts and leaders." -- Appeal to popularity doesn't turn something into a fact all by itself, either. Facts are facts, regardless of consensus. People seem to be getting overly sure of themselves because of consensus and ganging up on others for no valid reason.

"The problem is that there was a color change in the acetone test and if it is not from tudei kava then it makes one wonder what it could be since we know Noble kava does not make it that color. One might even ask is there something else that was added to the kava that might cause this, again we know that pure Noble will not have this color." -- This surely *is* the problem, because there is a bunch of unknown things going on here. Judd was being matter-of-fact, and offering what he knows, and Deleted User was on the offensive. There is no need to inject emotion into this. Simply find out what imparts orange (rather than yellow), find out what this compound does to the kava and the drinker, and then it's settled. Objectivity, not sand-in-panties.

"The test results from Deleted User is not meant to cause trouble it is for us to use to make an informed choice as to what we want to drink." -- That's great, and I applaud any research that results in our safety and knowledge. But all we have, as of yet, is correlation. Does anybody have any real data to support the notion that this correlation is any better than the correlation of chemotype to noble vs tudei?

Both Deleted User and Judd are doing great work. But what we don't need is tenacious clinging to belief or bullying based on consensus. We need to find the facts and simply let the truth speak for itself.

 

[StinkWeed]

@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava - Maybe it is turmeric. Kava curry anyone?

You never know, might wind up being pretty awesome.

 

[HeadHodge]

@Steve973

 

[Steve973]

1. The creator of the acetone test originally stated that in his experience, it has never given false positives or negatives. He has not changed or amended this statement.

What is the verification method to determine accuracy vs false positives/negatives? To be sure that there have *never* been false positives or negatives, there must be some sort of deterministic verification. This is a bit confusing, because if we don't know exactly what is imparting colors, and if all we have is correlation, then the logic that says there has never been a false positive or negative is quite circular. What really has to be done is to *chemically* define what a "noble kava" is. Only if we know which compounds are desirable and which compounds are dangerous can we really feel that we aren't dabbling in pseudoscience. After that, we can determine if the acetone (or other solvent) test is showing us what we really think it is showing us.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Ok, before we get the boxing gloves out, let's summarize:

1. The creator of the acetone test originally stated that in his experience, it has never given false positives or negatives. He has not changed or amended this statement.
2. Judd disagrees, and states that he has a kava which delivers a false positive in the acetone test.
3. Vanuatu disagrees with Judd, and finds no false positive.
4. Judd agrees with Vanuatu on the FK/KL portion of their test, but disagrees with their acetone test.
5. Judd feels that we should contact Vanuatu and ask them about the part he disagrees with.
6. I feel Judd should contact Vanuatu himself, since it is his test, and he is claiming the first false positive acetone test in history.

From there it gets a little fuzzy... I can't tell if Judd thinks we should just stop using the acetone test altogether because he has declared it invalid, or just make an exception for his kava.

1. Maybe he's still never seen a false positive. Dr. Lebot does not run all the tests himself. The 11 Year Waka did not have a positive result, according to the lab. Just because he doesn't share it on a kava forum or with the owner of Stoner Music doesn't mean he hasn't had any new developments. Also worth noting is that the most recent samples sent to Vanuatu for testing by others in the kava industry no longer include the acetone test. I don't know if that means he questions its 100% validity, but I think it's absence may be very telling.

2. I have a kava that is clearly noble. No kava with a noble chemotype has ever proven to be tudei. How's that for no false positives? The acetone test is the outlier in this case. All other testing based on known compounds, not some unknown substance, shows this kava to be noble.

3. Vanuatu agrees. They tested my 11 Year Waka and show it to be noble based on the quantity of a known compound (FK/KL ratio).

4. Bingo.

5. No, I feel that you should independently send a sample. You can't come on this forum expecting a vendor to do his due diligence, then when he or she does, say it's not good enough. Proven tests with quantifiable results aren't good enough for you because the tester has a "vested interest"? You'd better be willing to send in your own samples to prove me wrong. If you and Dr. Lebot are as chummy as you make it seem, he should be happy to do this for you, especially considering the circumstances.

6. I instead sent in a second sample. Of course, I don't think they're doing the acetone test anymore (See answer 1). Will you apologize when that one comes back with a similar FK/KL ratio and a noble stamp? Or will you still dispute it because I have a "vested interest"? It's a lose lose.

I think the acetone test provides results that often confirm what has been identified as tudei based on known and confirmed substances. It should take a backseat if HPLC tests show a noble chemotype, along with a low FK/KL ratio. The acetone test was never designed by Dr. Lebot to be a preliminary and definitive test (nor was it designed to identify adulterated kava, but that's another story). The only 100% agreed upon method to identify tudei and noble is FK/KL ratio and chemotype. A new untested kava comes on the market? Sure, do the acetone test, but the definitive results of known substances should always trump the results of an incomplete test for a still unknown substance.

 

[Steve973]

Deleted User: If the 11-year Waka ends up having a verifiable noble chemotype and an FK/KL ratio, then what will you say? Will this be enough to be considered the landmark event that you spoke of?

 

[StinkWeed]

Maybe everyone should loosen up a bit, drink some kava... At least until somebody sends some other samples for testing. Then you guys can say "I told you so" without all the shaky vibes.