What's new

"Pure speculation is not probable cause."

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
This was the verdict the German courts gave to the Kava ban when it was overturned. This verdict still stands. Flavokavain B has never been shown to be hepatoxic, and it occurs in both Noble cultivars (2 mg/g) as well as Tudei cultivars (5 mg/g). So if anyone is going to argue for a Tudei ban, it has to be premised on cultural considerations. Kava is safe, healthy, and a great alternative to chemical pharmaceuticals.

Noble will always be preferable to Tudei for its cleaner effects. Hands down. But the verdict is in, and "pure speculation is not probable cause."
 

OldUser01

Newbie
Seriously, the authors really, honestly do recommend against consuming tudei. They and the South Pacific governments also support differentiating between tudei and noble. Consumers agree and choose kavas determined to be 100% noble.
What is your point, honestly? Is it to say that a session with traditional kava is probably not lethal, but might still be very unpleasant? Fine. So what, Garry has never argued that "tudei kills people". If this is what you think you are fighting again then you've built yourself a nice straw man. The idea behind True Kava has always been that people should have the right to demand 100% pure, noble kava, which is something that hardly any vendor sold before Garry's testing. Many vendors called their kava noble, but it contained tudei, tudei peelings etc. Regardless of how dangerous or safe tudei is long-term, many people find it to be extremely undesirable and they have welcome the ability to avoid it. Are you upset that some people who mix tudei and noble have lost customers? C'est la vie. Surely it would be either stupid or evil (or both) to demand that the whole world stops pushing for quality so that some businesses can continue to sell crap.
In any case I actually do not believe you represent any vendors. No vendor voices support for your position (and no, your assertions that they do, but in complete secrecy) is not credible, no scientist backs your position.

Other quotes from the article you quote:
"Among these, pure flavokavin B [37] and further flavokavins [51] were found to be potentially liver toxic in mice, whereas dihydrome- thysticin was shown to be nontoxic. Toxicity seems to be triggered only at relatively high concentrations, too high to be of relevance with the use of noble kava or its corresponding extract preparations [42].

Based on the analyses of this still ongoing project, flavokavin B could be used as a marker for the determination of kava quality. From a practical point of view, a limitation of flavokavin B con- tent to 2 mg/g of dried material would be sufficient to assure the use of noble kava and thus the possibility to lean on traditional safety experience.

Results from a currently ongoing research program in the South Pacific so far confirm these findings. Roots and peeled stumps of noble kava varieties usually contain less than 1 mg/g of flavokavin B in the dry matter, whereas the bark (“peelings”) frequently contains higher quantities than 2 mg/g in noble varieties, mostly exceeding 5 mg/g in non-noble varieties, especially in plant parts exposed to sunlight (unpublished data). These findings corroborrate the traditional use of roots and peeled rhizome stumps only and the avoidance of non-peeled materials and sun-exposed plant parts.

Such unsuitable plant parts, especially peelings of two-day kava, are unfortunately still sold by certain traders in Vanuatu and Fiji (in the latter case, with re-exported material from Vanuatu). Vanuatu has officially banned exports of two-day kava through the Vanuatu kava act, but does not have the means to control the qual- ity of the exports. Furthermore, this law unfortunately makes an exception from this prohibition of exporting two-day kava plant materials when the client specifically demands such a quality – a loophole in the legislation extensively used by some traders.

The other kava-producing South Pacific nations, i.e., Fiji, Samoa, and Tonga, do not have two-day varieties.
(..)

The current state of ethnopharmacological and phytochemical research still does not confirm a causal relationship between the consumption of kava preparations and the occurrence of adverse liver reactions. With the assumption of the (albeit very rare) ex- istence of such a type of reaction, manufacturers should seek guidance for the quality of plant material known to be safe through centuries of traditional experience. The problem of possible hepatotoxicity of kava preparations was potentially caused by ill-defined herbal drug identity, a lack of appropriate quality control, and misguided regulatory politics.

Thus, in order to re-establish “noble” kava to its rightful place as an essential anxiolytic drug in the European market, its botanical and phytochemical differentiation from the “non-noble” kava varieties has to be established by pharmacopoeial regulations. This should be a minor problem, as there are already several plant drugs where the pharmacopoeia does already differentiate be- tween closely related and easily misidentified species (e.g., Illic- ium verum vs. Illicium anisatum). With the circumstantial evidence supporting a raw drug identity/quality issue at the base of the problem of hepatotoxicity, the definition of appropriate quality standards should, in any case, be helpful.

There is, however, not much time to act on the problem of drug identity of pharmaceutically suitable kava varieties. In the past 10 years, kava exports from the South Pacific islands have again multiplied, reaching the same level as at the time before the kava ban in 2001. The United States have especially evolved as a kava market, with currently more than 90 kava bars serving kava of frequently highly doubtful quality. Similarly, the market of New Caledonia has shifted to the import of large quantities of two- day kava roots and (mainly) peelings from Vanuatu, with the ar- gument that the higher kavalactone concentrations and, at the same time, relatively low costs allow for the production of more kava drinks at lesser expenses. If the flavokavins or other as yet non-identified constituents of non-noble kava are truly responsi- ble for liver toxicity, this could be playing with fire. There are al- ready isolated reports of liver toxicity related to kava use from New Caledonia – cases that are now discussed in the context of potential mould-related toxicity [54], but even this aspect would have to be part of quality specifications."
 

Kalm with Kava

Kava Vendor
I'm sorry Kavasseur but there are scientific studies showing it as being Hepatoxic. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2992378/ along with pipermethystine, both of which find their way concentrated in many of the Chinese produced extracts of "Noble Chemotype" products because the only way a Chemotype can be used to judge nobility if it is 100% one variety. A "Noble Chemotype" can simply be produced by mixing 51% Noble varieties with 49% Tudei varieties by sample math.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...kPNWY63agA25AIKQQ&sig2=pgfkN80jVLYgGE4-NvASgQ

http://mitosis-research.com/2016/10...-solvent-extract-has-been-used-to-treat-mild/

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I am absolutely opposed to stems, leaves, and peels being included in Kava powders. But that isn't a Tudei issue, it's an issue for any Kava. My understanding is that pipermethystine, which is only found in improper plant parts, has been linked to potential liver issues in Switzerland.
 
Last edited:

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
What are your credentials? No offense but I find your resistance to a growing scientific consensus and failure to err on the side of caution very curious. But hey.... who am I?
Well, that particular comment was just to say that Dr. Lebot is not a medical doctor or hepatologist. Meaning that he can't really recommend what should or shouldn't be consumed, at least from a health perspective.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
@Kavasseur - Two questions:
  1. What is your motive in posting this?
  2. Why are you promoting two day kava?
Thank you for your questions.

1. The German courts overturned the Kava ban, since it wasn't based on science but pure speculation. So why would we want to oppose this? The verdict is in. Kava is healthy. Hurray?

2. I have repeatedly said I don't prefer Tudei Kava and don't promote it. When is the last time I reviewed a Tudei Kava? 6 years ago? I do believe it should be available to those who want to try it, and don't expect that it will ever be demanded in abundance. As you say, it has unpleasant side effects and people who drink it (newbies or veterans) need to know the short-term risks.
 
D

Deleted User01

I'm curious, who are the Kava Vendors who will benefit from Tuday being Okay? I had a much bigger post which I just erased. But in a nutshell, I just hope the enemies of kava don't get a hold of your posts and turn them against the whole industry and the kava farmers who fought so hard to get people to at least accept Noble Kava. Here is the headline, "Kava Pundit says it is Ok to drink kava deemed dangerous by the very people who grow it (Vanuatu)". Honestly, I give up. I consider myself pretty good at Marketing and I can see how your posts could easily be turned against ALL kava regardless of type. The key fact is that the Vanuatuans themselves claim it is not safe and of course Dr. Lebot. Hopefully, nobody (outside of the Forum) pays attention to these posts. @Kapmcrunk, I highly recommend that you modify these threads so Google doesn't get wind of them because Google pays a lot of attention to what we say here.
 

Ricardo Piquant

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, that particular comment was just to say that Dr. Lebot is not a medical doctor or hepatologist. Meaning that he can't really recommend what should or shouldn't be consumed, at least from a health perspective.
He may not be a hepatologist but he is a respected member of academia who works hand in hand with other specialists who all seem to agree on this point. Dr. Lebot's opinion is not an isolated outlier bucking trends. It is but one piece of what seems to be a cohesive and growing scientific consensus. Just as the validity and merit of the acetone test seems to be based upon scientific consensus. No test is 100% but that's physics. Science tells us there's a 97% chance smoking causes lung cancer. .. does the other 3% destroy the whole contention?
 
D

Deleted User01

Instead of knocking my head against the wall :banghead:, I got a better idea. @Kavasseur, could you please contact the officials (in charge of the kava industry) in Vanuatu and givel them your thoughts. Then listen to what they have to say about it. Then come back and tell us what they said. If they are happy with your theories and encourage you to continue talking about them, then I will forever be mute on the point. After all, my main concern is their ability to grow the Kava Industry. That's my agenda. Oh, did I mention that everyone always has an agenda. Yeah, they do. :D
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
I feel like this is what's happening.

We're in America where laws are not based on the health or saftey of people but money. We all know this..

So there's what's "Right" and theirs what's practical given our current circumstances.

@kavassuer remmeber that time you ate a random pot brownie your friend gave you and freaked out and we're very vehement about cannabis.

Cannabis is obviously not bad we know that.. it's a plant.. you can't die and it's safe health wise.
And yet through consuming a variety of cannabis you weren't familiar with, that had excessive levels of THC most likley... and look how you ( you a person who is very open minded and "liberal")

Now imagine that same with happening to some housewifes kid with tuedi kava.... if you reacted how you did.... and Americans still react this way to cannabis even tho we all know it's safe ...

Well you get my point.... honestly I'm 100 percent on your side, I think everyone is when it comes to a moral standpoint....
What were dealing with though is the practicality of the situation...
We're trying to meet them at their level so to speak

Trust me I hate it too...
Its like cannabis again... I shouldn't have to defend a safe herb against people who have no sense of the facts... no one does.. but this is where we are at.

Personally I think we're gonna regret the tuedi ban if it truly blocks access when we find out it has its place and that's why Vanuatu didn't eradicate it long ago

Really I don't know what to do.
It's wrong to ban any substance in my opinion so long as it's relatively safe.

On the other hand this isnt the world we live in. so it's more pick our battle wisely.

This is the way it seems this conflict is coming up.
You don't want to see another thing that's really not bad be banned.
I agree.
Everyone else on this thread .. doesn't want to see both noble and tuedi banned because of tuedi ..
Its really a tough situation.
 
D

Deleted User01

I totally agree with @Mrbinx69. But I would still like to see @Kavasseur ask the Vanuatuans if they think his words are ok to say in public or do they wished he would stop with the ongoing Tudei converstaion. Hey, it's there livelihood. If they don't mind @Kavasseur poohing poohing Dr. Lebot and saying that Tudei being bad is pure speculation, then we in the forum shouldn't care either. They have a lot more to lose than I.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I feel like this is what's happening.

We're in America where laws are not based on the health or saftey of people but money. We all know this..

So there's what's "Right" and theirs what's practical given our current circumstances.

@kavassuer remmeber that time you ate a random pot brownie your friend gave you and freaked out and we're very vehement about cannabis.

Cannabis is obviously not bad we know that.. it's a plant.. you can't die and it's safe health wise.
And yet through consuming a variety of cannabis you weren't familiar with, that had excessive levels of THC most likley... and look how you ( you a person who is very open minded and "liberal")

Now imagine that same with happening to some housewifes kid with tuedi kava.... if you reacted how you did.... and Americans still react this way to cannabis even tho we all know it's safe ...

Well you get my point.... honestly I'm 100 percent on your side, I think everyone is when it comes to a moral standpoint....
What were dealing with though is the practicality of the situation...
We're trying to meet them at their level so to speak

Trust me I hate it too...
Its like cannabis again... I shouldn't have to defend a safe herb against people who have no sense of the facts... no one does.. but this is where we are at.

Personally I think we're gonna regret the tuedi ban if it truly blocks access when we find out it has its place and that's why Vanuatu didn't eradicate it long ago

Really I don't know what to do.
It's wrong to ban any substance in my opinion so long as it's relatively safe.

On the other hand this isnt the world we live in. so it's more pick our battle wisely.

This is the way it seems this conflict is coming up.
You don't want to see another thing that's really not bad be banned.
I agree.
Everyone else on this thread .. doesn't want to see both noble and tuedi banned because of tuedi ..
Its really a tough situation.
I absolutely think this a valuable perspective. It is a tough situation indeed.
 
Top