"Pure speculation is not probable cause."

[Kalm with Kava]

And just to lighten things up a little on this thread, here's a picture of me with a massive Papa Kea stalk today

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Haha epic !

 

[Bula Kava House]

There very well could be a constiuent that hasn't even been studied extensively that's present in Tudeis and not Nobles since they are genetically different plants.

Or vice versa! I'm mostly kidding, but as long as we're speculating, I'll just play devil's advocate one more time.

Seriously though, I know what you're getting at. I, of course, am just as much against mixing tudei with noble in any misleading way, whether it's for an extract or drinking.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

@Kavasseur - No. Does one's mere physical presence in a country endow them with some special properties?

Well, it endows you with a knowledge of the social, political, and economic context. In the Solomons, the government has a very loose role to play in the day-to-day lives of people. Most of the islands, even a few miles apart from each other, speak different languages and have different subsistence strategies. There are a lot of foreign influences in fisheries, copra production, timber, and other commerce. The government is easily influenced by technocrats and investors who have various interests that don't necessarily (or even usually) represent the interests or visions of the communities.

 

[Zaphod]

I would like to add a different perspective to this conversation. I have only been drinking Kava for just over a year (~16 months). When I was first looking for something to relieve anxiety, but not wanting to jump to using a prescription med like Xanax I was close to ordering Tudei. The reason was simple, I wanted something "strong". Most other natural cures for anxiety and stress are just barely effective and in scientific studies are just barely better than placebos (ex. St. Johns Wort). Effective yes but not very. So my first inclination as a newbie was to buy the "strong" stuff as advertised by some in order to get the desired outcome. I didn't want something that was barely discernible.
It was only after spending more time researching and reading on this forum that I decided on a Noble. I am happy that I did, because it provided what I was looking for and I see no reason to even try a tudei with all of these wonderful varieties of Noble. However, I will concede one point to Kavasseur. I did as a newbie start my journey with a vendor that had the TK label out of an abundance of caution. I now know that there are plenty of other vendors that supply noble kava - but at the time it was hard to discern based on the test results that were posted on this forum where to go so I defaulted to a vendor that I know had been tested and consistently showed noble kava. That being said I would urge vendors on this forum to post the results of their latest and greatest testing (from any source not just TK) loudly and proudly on this forum and on their website so that it is easier for newbies to discern and for the more experienced drinkers to find what they desire. As I stated in a previous thread a standard label and COA for all Kava would be ideal - and is where the industry should head.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Interesting. I'm very pleased that unlike your description of the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu has a government that takes an active interest in its citizens, and is concerned about their welfare:

"Kava is an integral part of Vanuatu society, symbolising peace, respect and goodwill. Important ceremonies are incomplete without kava either as beverage or as freshly dugout roots. Over the last 3 decades, use of the kava beverage has evolved from being a social drink that village folks would enjoy at the nakamals in the evenings to an established cash crop that is sold on the domestic and export markets.

The birth of commercial kava has brought along with it a number of challenges that the industry has not been able to address in a cohesive manner. In particular kava quality remains a big concern along the production and marketing chain. Vanuatu has about 80 varieties of kava which comprises good as well as bad varieties for the beverage market. Farmers chose fast growing varieties that often are not recommended varieties for the beverage market.

It is for this reason that the Ministry of Agriculture has put together a National Kava Strategy to address gaps in the production and marketing chains. The Kava Strategy is part of a series of strategic documents produced by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development to assist in implementing the Vanuatu Agriculture Sector Policy (2015-2030).

Many people contributed to the development of this strategic document. I would like to note especially the contribution of farmers and the Kava Industry representatives during consultation meetings held on Malekula and Santo. Comments received formed the core of this document. I would also like to acknowledge various individuals under the Ministry of Trades and Ministry of Agriculture for their contributions in directing the development of the document."
James Wasi
Acting Director
Department of Agriculture and Rural Development

"More than 80% of Vanuatu’s population rely on agriculture for their daily subsistence and wellbeing. Subsistence farming continues to be the mainstay of Vanuatu’s economy, however an increasing proportion of farmers are evolving into semi-commercial farming, making the sector the largest provider of employment.

Kava is the third largest export commodity from Vanuatu and its utility as a cash crop is universally recognised. The issues facing the sector are well known and well documented, and solutions have been put forward in the past in various studies and working groups on how to deal with these issues.

Observations suggest that the volume of kava consumed locally and the ancillary activities surrounding local consumption would gross over VT 2 billion per annum.

Quality and Quantity are the challenges facing the industry. Many attempts have been made to try and address these challenges but results have been mixed and awareness materials developed have not been disseminated to the level where those who need to know are aware of their existence."

THE PROPOSED VISION IS: TO BE THE LEADING PRODUCER OF QUALITY KAVA IN THE PACIFIC AND THE WORLD.

Source: Vanuatu National Kava Strategy

So, the government of Vanuatu is clearly interested in improving the lives of all concerned, but it appears that you disagree with this strategy and vision. Why?

I'm trying to figure out whether you are being serious or sarcastic here. Are you really claiming that a letter released by the Director of a Ministry in a country with complicated cultural dynamics accurately reflects some kind of cooperative utopia? Melanesia is a very vulnerable region with complex social-economic problems. This is the reason why I asked you if you had been to Vanuatu. How a government talks about its people doesn't typically reflect the situation on the ground. I can find you numerous statements by governments of underdeveloped countries who claim they are doing a good job and the people are living in awe of their accomplishments.

https://www.unicef.org/pacificislands/POLICY_BRIEF_CHILD_POVERTY_AND_DISPARITIES_IN_VANUATU.pdf

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Haha. Never met a Vanuatu kava grower have you? They're not exactly a union of organized farmers spread across the many islands. They often don't even speak the same languages beyond some basic Bislama. Quite a few of the kava growing villages don't even have power. They're poor (from a financial standpoint) and they live simple lives. Hiring attorneys to fight government policy isn't really in their realm of thought. They'll probably just keep growing tudei until they can't sell it anymore.

@Deleted User This is why I asked you. @Bula Kava House is exactly right that Vanuatu is composed of various ethnic groups who speak many local languages, and that the government is not some great beacon of representative politics. On the global stage, rural farmers have very little power to challenge government decisions or programs. While I'm sure there are a lot of government agricultural initiatives concerning Kava and the promotion of Noble-only varieties, these things are expensive to enforce and aren't passively accepted by the people producing crops.

My reason for wanting to articulate this is that if you don't understand how hard it is to implement something like the Vanuatu Kava policy, then you might be missing out on key reasons why the representative testing of all Kava grown and exported from Vanuatu is probably not possible

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Here is a more complete version of your email from Dr. Schmidt, it contains some context that is pertinent:
"The quick test is clearly not a fail-proof method, it just gives you an impression. I would say Melomelo is probably not the only one where you may risk a false-negative finding. I am just working on a monograph with an HPLC method, which increases the chances for a correct finding, but the problem was always that HPLC is good for importers, whereas there is no way to use this in Vanuatu.

Examining my samples I had a few false correlations with two-day as well, and I had the gut-feeling that this may be related to the age of the plant upon harvesting. Just a gut feeling, I would need much more samples and a systematic approach. But it is well known that the kavalactone composition changes with the age of the plant, becoming more noble. My hypothesis is that the noble varieties I found non-noble were simply too young. Just a hypothesis, not a proven fact."

When I saw this quote I had a feeling that Dr. Schmidt was not referring merely to acetone testing, but also to HPLC. I asked him about it, here is my question and his reply (emphasis mine) :

Garry:
"When you said "I had a few false correlations with two-day as well", were you referring to the acetone test or HPLC?

Dr. Schmidt:
"With respect to my results I was primarily referring to the HPLC, but I have seen the colour test in Vanuatu myself, applied to samples of supposedly certified origin. There were samples where the colour was ambiguous and hard to interpret, but that must be expected. Even with the HPLC there is no absolute black or white answer in some cases, which was the reason why I tried to establish parameters allowing the importers to err on the safe side.

I don’t know about Melo melo, but I saw borderline results by HPLC with
- The FKB content of roots of Kelai, Puariki, Dokobana Vula, Moi and Nene (FKB contents)
- The FKB/K-ratios of roots of Nene and Panaewa (but still within the defined limit)
- The FKB/K-ratio of Hina Tonga chips (over the limit although designated as “noble”) and Mahakea (barely under the limit)
- The K/(KL-K)-ratio of roots of Nene (under the limit) – with this parameter I had a few false-positive results, which is worse then false-negative.

I did not give him these details but this outcome is worse, he is drawing the wrong conclusions.

My intended message to him was that I prefer to err on the safe side, not to discard the colour test because of the odd false result!

Just to make this clear: I like the acetone test, it is easy to use and usually gives you a quick answer. If it is positive for noble (yellow) you have nothing to worry about. If it is negative (orange) you’ll have to start asking questions."

When you highlighted this sentence from Schmidt: "My intended message to him was that I prefer to err on the safe side, not to discard the colour test because of the odd false result!

Who is the 'him' he's referring to here? It would seem to be Judd, since the conversation is about a previous e-mail between Judd and himself. If that's the case, where did Schmidt get the idea that Judd recommends "discarding the colour" test? I don't recall seeing that, maybe I missed it though.

I know I certainly never said such a thing, and clearly stated as much, probably more than once, in the pertinent thread. In fact, the more e-mails I see from Schmidt, the more I see his views align with mine. Not surprised, they're rational and acknowledge possibilities.

If the 'him' was in reference to Kavasseur, that might make more sense, since he can be a bit of a wild-card and his entrance into the aforementioned thread resulted in certain claims being extended beyond their reach...and somewhat of a departure from the original issue. Anyhow, from what we've been shown of this recent e-mail conversation, I don't see what would make Doug the person he was referring to...maybe there's more to the conversation that would make it more clear.

I may be reading this wrong, but the new info provided by Schmidt in this recent e-mail doesn't appear to make anything prettier, and in fact adds a new layer of confusion or uncertainty to certain kavas.
So, unless I'm misunderstanding this(which I may be), it appears that Schmidt has not only seen a few examples noble kava's create non-yellow acetone results, but he's also come across noble kavas who's actual FkB contents and/or FkB/K ratios do not align with levels typically within the 'noble range'...and in some cases may even be closer to tudei levels ?

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I felt the need to make a post on this topic so here it is.
Here is a new scientific report that just came out, hot off the press. This report came from the prestigious "Gourmet Hawaiian Kava Scientific Institute" The report says and I quote "GHK grows 100% Noble Kava and at the same time he grows Isa a known tudei kava"
The Noble kava has been tested by the world most accurate way of testing Noble vs Tudei. This testing method has been used for over 3000 years and is very simple to do. All you do is drink the kava and enjoy. I never test the tudei this way because all the thousands of Pacific Island people have done that for us already and they say drink Noble not tudei. So since I grow all these kava's myself adn I know what they look like and how to identify them I like to use this method of testing, in fact I like to do my testing ever day. I do several shells of testing and then I go and reflect on the results. Like last night I tested Panaewa also known as SIG or "sure is good" and I have to tell you it sure is good. I think I will have to do some more testing on this kava. Maybe when @Kalm with Kava comes over today. Although he might want to test a different Hawaiian grown Noble kava, I will let him decide.
So lets all go and test some known 100% pure Noble kava, there is plenty to choose from, here are just a few quality vendors that have good quality Noble kava---Kalm with Kava, Cactus kava, Bula Kava House, Kavafied, kava time, Kava roots, Lami kava, unda kava, and even Gourmet Hawaiian Kava, this is not all the people that sell great Noble kava so go and get some and do some testing of your own. It's fun and very accurate. Aloha nui loa to all.

Chris

 

[Señor Chuggs]

He is clearly opposed to these standards, and is apparently hoping to mount a protest against them. I find it interesting that he has no allies in this cause, and not a single vendor of the many he claims have been "oppressed" is willing to stand with him. In short, this thread is not a discussion, it is a disinformation campaign with no obvious motive.

My view is that your accusations of "misinformation" is PART of the discussion. Whether or not @Kavasseur has allies is irrelevant.
As kava testing becomes more and more important, we NEED vocal skeptics just as much as we need supporters. I don't have much to comment on this discussion, because I'm frankly not knowledgeable enough. But as a reader, I DO find this discussion constructive, and I doubt I'm the only one.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

I never tried koniak, maybe you had stopped selling it by the time I started drinking kava? Out of interest though what were the effects actually like? Was it actually more likely to make you feel ill the next day?

I loved the Koniak. I do not remember it having any next day effects, or at least none more pronounced than a strong, dark Waka.

Personally I've felt more pronounced morning after effects from Fiji wakas than any other kind, save labeled ISAs. (If Koniak is technically an ISA than I stand corrected)

 

[Señor Chuggs]

Henry, I'm not a "hardcore Tudei advocate."

LOL. Hardcore..... Let's all cut our sleeves off for Tudei.

Exactly, Edward. This is one of my broader points, that the Kava community is already a self-regulating one. Since we know the acetonic test isn't always accurate, and that only samples of batches (sometimes one sample across several batches) are tested, we need to be able to determine what is good and bad Kava. I think the reality is that Kavas range from more ancestral ones that are closer to Wichmanii to more finer domesticated Nobles. Flav K seems to be a way of identifying (or chemically marking) this evolution

I see the testing as as a quantitative component to the mostly qualitative evaluations of kava that are created by this forum community. I don't like seeing Koniak taken off the market because of a test result that everyone rallied behind, despite numerous positive reviews.

Obviously this is irrelevant in regard to the Vanuatu laws concerning Tudei exports. I Do believe that the international community of kava consumers should respect these laws, since we all want kava to remain "safe" from prohibition in our respective countries. Part of doing that is making sure the public's perception is that kava consumers are law-abiding.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

I can tell you right now. .. if a kava shows orange it's going in the garbage can and I wouldn't order from that vendor again. I don't need to take chances. I'm very happy erring on the side of caution.
I've had tudei and experienced the sickness and it's one of the most awful feelings I've ever experienced.

I might throw it away too, and likely contact the vendor to ask if this particular product was noble. I would not, However, assume the vendor had ill intentions because I didn't react well to One or more of their products. Someone out there may like it. I do NOT see any reason to "blacklist" a vendor (especially publicly) unless they were objectively disceptive.

(Not saying you would, I'm speaking more about the general attitude the acetone test has fostered)

 

[Edward]

I might throw it away too, and likely contact the vendor to ask if this particular product was noble. I would not, However, assume the vendor had ill intentions because I didn't react well to One or more of their products. Someone out there may like it. I do NOT see any reason to "blacklist" a vendor (especially publicly) unless they were objectively disceptive.

(Not saying you would, I'm speaking more about the general attitude the acetone test has fostered)

I agree with this, if I had a bad reaction to one kava I wouldn't necessarily start screaming in public about the vendor selling bad kava especially if I could see lots of reviews suggesting it was good kava. I just wouldn't buy that kava again and so over time the vendor would get the hint when they weren't selling any of that kava. I would possibly mention it to a few people I know on here and that would spread the word a bit quicker too. It's all we've got to do as a group to weed out the bad, er, weeds.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

An important part of all of this with tuedi and stuff is that many of us here are also addictive people including myself .. which is why we choose kava, because it's forgiving. it will bite sure if I misuse it but ultimately it allows me to be and make mistakes... tuedi being more of a sedative than relaxing tonic like noble seems to be.. it could cause alot more issues on the level of addiction... not that it is addictive .. but that psychological addiction which is the real disease can easily lend itself to the down fall of tuedi.
It's not that tuedi is unsafe but that I think most of us who are here for addiction help would use it too much and feel the burn.
Personally I would like to try tuedi kava that is like Koniak. one of these exceptions.. I'm also very curious about the few outliers.


Now for some serious science questions.

@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava @Deleted User @Kavasseur @Bula Kava House

Noble was developed through selecting kavas with desirable effects... I assume this was done with a primitive wisdom much like we made the dog...
We can see with dogs that with the wrong intention you could create more aggressive dogs. going backwards so to speak but would still have many dog features but missing the main key part that really seperate the two. the stress hormone / agression.

Is it possible there are some outliers that exist because the selection process has shifted it's intention by some farmers?

Please correct me if I'm inaccurate and therefore baseless on all of this ... but theoretically could a noble cultivar over time and time again of selecting the plants with more potent drug like effects cause a kind of mix up in chemistry so to speak that causes a kind of middle ground for certain cultivars?

How do we know Koniak is some miracle anomaly? A Tudei thats "not like" other Tudeis?

Sounds to me like their might be kavas that are just "not like" other kavas...... And maybe we could vet our kavas traditionally (by drinking them) IN ADDITION to quantitative chemical testing.

 

[Edward]

How do we know Koniak is some miracle anomaly? A Tudei thats "not like" other Tudeis?

Sounds to me like their might be kavas that are just "not like" other kavas...... And maybe we could vet our kavas traditionally (by drinking them) IN ADDITION to quantitative chemical testing.

Yes, every time I see a thread like this I always think, just drink some kava man.