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"Pure speculation is not probable cause."

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
Exactly, Edward. This is one of my broader points, that the Kava community is already a self-regulating one. Since we know the acetonic test isn't always accurate, and that only samples of batches (sometimes one sample across several batches) are tested, we need to be able to determine what is good and bad Kava. I think the reality is that Kavas range from more ancestral ones that are closer to Wichmanii to more finer domesticated Nobles. Flav K seems to be a way of identifying (or chemically marking) this evolution
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
Since we know the acetonic test isn't always accurate, and that only samples of batches (sometimes one sample across several batches) are tested, we need to be able to determine what is good and bad Kava. I think the reality is that Kavas range from more ancestral ones that are closer to Wichmanii to more finer domesticated Nobles. Flav K seems to be a way of identifying (or chemically marking) this evolution
Well, from what I understand, Dr Schmidt actually supports the use of the acetone test and claims it is great for those eager to err on the side of caution. If the result of the test is positive you have nothing to worry about. If it is negative you’ll have to start asking questions (which actually means it's most likely not noble unless there are some unknown, bizarre, odd factors that need to be assessed on a case by case basis). I personally wouldn't bother asking any questions and would just stick to the kavas that pass the test. It's not like we don't have much choice.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Exactly, Edward. This is one of my broader points, that the Kava community is already a self-regulating one. Since we know the acetonic test isn't always accurate, and that only samples of batches (sometimes one sample across several batches) are tested, we need to be able to determine what is good and bad Kava. I think the reality is that Kavas range from more ancestral ones that are closer to Wichmanii to more finer domesticated Nobles. Flav K seems to be a way of identifying (or chemically marking) this evolution
I remember you saying about the troubles of quality control when each batch at the exporter level is made up of many smaller batches from individual farmers. I don't think the testing is the problem though and I just wouldn't call what the testers and others are trying to do as a witch hunt against tu*ei kava.
 

Ricardo Piquant

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, from what I understand, Dr Schmidt actually supports the use of the acetone test and claims it is great for those eager to err on the side of caution. If the result of the test is positive you have nothing to worry about. If it is negative you’ll have to start asking questions (which actually means it's most likely not noble unless there are some unknown, bizarre, odd factors that need to be assessed on a case by case basis). I personally wouldn't bother asking any questions and would just stick to the kavas that pass the test. It's not like we don't have much choice.
I can tell you right now. .. if a kava shows orange it's going in the garbage can and I wouldn't order from that vendor again. I don't need to take chances. I'm very happy erring on the side of caution.
I've had tudei and experienced the sickness and it's one of the most awful feelings I've ever experienced.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Btw, lets not forget that if Garry hadnt started doing his tests the vendor if that spiked stuff would still be selling dodgy kava. His decision to actually make sure his label are accurate came as a direct response to True Kava's results
That's true but still there are a lot of untested kavas going around at the moment that are noble because the vendor knows if they make people ill with dubious kava they will probably lose a lot of business as a result and so nearly all vendors are now on the noble wagon.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I suppose you could argue that the testing has sped things up a bit but overall it's the power of this forum (and maybe some others) that are changing things.
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
And if there was a contingent who are anti-government and seeking to have these standards overthrown, I could respect that too. Their best approach would undoubtedly be to gather their own group of scientists and fight that battle on a field where they might have a chance
Haha. Never met a Vanuatu kava grower have you? They're not exactly a union of organized farmers spread across the many islands. They often don't even speak the same languages beyond some basic Bislama. Quite a few of the kava growing villages don't even have power. They're poor (from a financial standpoint) and they live simple lives. Hiring attorneys to fight government policy isn't really in their realm of thought. They'll probably just keep growing tudei until they can't sell it anymore.
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
An important part of all of this with tuedi and stuff is that many of us here are also addictive people including myself .. which is why we choose kava, because it's forgiving. it will bite sure if I misuse it but ultimately it allows me to be and make mistakes... tuedi being more of a sedative than relaxing tonic like noble seems to be.. it could cause alot more issues on the level of addiction... not that it is addictive .. but that psychological addiction which is the real disease can easily lend itself to the down fall of tuedi.
It's not that tuedi is unsafe but that I think most of us who are here for addiction help would use it too much and feel the burn.
Personally I would like to try tuedi kava that is like Koniak. one of these exceptions.. I'm also very curious about the few outliers.


Now for some serious science questions.

@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava @Deleted User @Kavasseur @Bula Kava House

Noble was developed through selecting kavas with desirable effects... I assume this was done with a primitive wisdom much like we made the dog...
We can see with dogs that with the wrong intention you could create more aggressive dogs. going backwards so to speak but would still have many dog features but missing the main key part that really seperate the two. the stress hormone / agression.

Is it possible there are some outliers that exist because the selection process has shifted it's intention by some farmers?

Please correct me if I'm inaccurate and therefore baseless on all of this ... but theoretically could a noble cultivar over time and time again of selecting the plants with more potent drug like effects cause a kind of mix up in chemistry so to speak that causes a kind of middle ground for certain cultivars?
 
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Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
An important part of all of this with tuedi and stuff is that many of us here are also addictive people including myself .. which is why we choose kava, because it's forgiving. it will bite sure if I misuse it but ultimately it allows me to be and make mistakes... tuedi being more of a sedative than relaxing tonic like noble seems to be.. it could cause alot more issues on the level of addiction... not that it is addictive .. but that psychological addiction which is the real disease can easily lend itself to the down fall of tuedi.
It's not that tuedi is unsafe but that I think most of us who are here for addiction help would use it too much and feel the burn.
Personally I would like to try tuedi kava that is like Koniak. one of these exceptions.. I'm also very curious about the few outliers.


Now for some serious science questions.

@Gourmet Hawaiian Kava @Deleted User @Kavasseur @Bula Kava House

Noble was developed through selecting kavas with desirable effects... I assume this was done with a primitive wisdom much like we made the dog...
We can see with dogs that with the wrong intention you could create more aggressive dogs. going backwards so to speak but would still have many dog features but missing the main key part that really seperate the two. the stress hormone / agression.

Is it possible there are some outliers that exist because the selection process has shifted it's intention by some farmers?

Please correct me if I'm inaccurate and therefore baseless on all of this ... but theoretically could a noble cultivar over time and time again of selecting the plants with more potent drug like effects cause a kind of mix up in chemistry so to speak that causes a kind of middle ground for certain cultivars?
Yes Noble kava was created through selecting kavas with desirable effects. It started with only wild wichmanii (spelling?) They would see a mutation in these kava's and then try it, if the effects were good they would keep it. After some time they started to get more and more good kava and then noble kava was born, the tudei kava is kind of a link between the wild kava and tudei kava. wild kava has seeds and the kava we love so much does not. If I have a Moi and grow it for years and years it will not change to give you the effects of say the "Koniak".
If I were growing Moi and I noticed a stalk that changed to a green color or what ever change made it different than the original plant then that is a possible somatic mutation, I take this mutation and plant it and grow it and then take cuttings from that after it has grown old enough and plant and grow that, if the mutation holds then we have a new kava and this might give different effects.
Also it is important to note that "Koniak" might have been a tudei kava that was not as bad as others, for example Isa is not as bad as others, some people can drink it with no problems others will get sick. It's sister Iwi will make anyone sick, it is so much stronger than Isa.
I hope this helps to clear some things up. Let me know if you have any other questions, aloha.

Chris
 

Zac Imiola (Herbalist)

Kava Connoisseur
@Deleted User I don't mean to use primitive in a derogatory sense. I actually appreciate it deeply, I mean primitive in more of a original intelligence rather than inferior. People didn't puposely make noble kava or dogs in a sense since they couldn't have known that. they just had a single goal it seems which was to increase saftey for both examples. Breed the wolves that are cozy and peaceful. re plant the kavas that are cozy and peaceful. I love it.
That's why I feel as though modern demand could possibly alter this in the long run if the intention of benevolence isn't maintained like what happened to cannabis where breeders started to go for more thc and less cbd and now we have freak strains that aren't pleasant at all! Acetone test aside.

I see what your saying though @Deleted User with out a live plant, it just doesn't really fit into the scientific categorization of kava since theirs no proof of its separate existence so far as you pointed out in a different thread.

This is a theoretical again... but if there are tuedi plants that have relatively similar FKB levels as noble, what if tuedi is only replanted if it has lower FKB .. I wonder if it could maximize medicinal benefits and lower side effects. just a 1:47 am thought haha not a serious idea to do.

I'm a little tired and out of it and now I see how Trump goes on twitter rants at 3 am hahaha
 

Kalm with Kava

Kava Vendor
Not entirely true, Mike. Combine 51% of a noble kava with a moderate level of Kavain and DHK, and a somewhat hight level of DHM (for a noble) with 49% of a tudei with a ridiculously high level of DHM and low kavain and DHK, for example, and there's a good chance you get a wacky chemotype with DHM in one of the first two positions (Clearly not noble). The chemotypes would have to work pretty well together to get a noble chemotype in your scenario. And playing devil's advocate, if you did mix two and end up with a clearly noble chemotype, there's a good chance you'd have desirable effects, along with relatively low Fk levels...

HPLC and chemotype are very useful for identifying noble, as long as results are read by someone who knows what they're looking for.
I understand your devil's advocate look at this but what we have to keep in mind is many companies (mostly foreign) have come in with the sole purpose of capatilizing on the financial aspect of the recent kava popularity and wanting to cut corners anywhere possible to maximize quick profits. They purchase and advocate for the growing of Tudei varieties not for the "traditional medicinal value" but for the low cost due to lack of demand in Vanuatu. Typically these mixes will be of a "moderate" Tudei like Vabu and Noble Borogu usually mixed at a 30:70 ratio to have a "Noble Chemotype" but producing FK levels still high above any known Noble cultivar and the associated side effects of lethargy and nausea. The real issue though lies with extracting these "Noble Chemotypes", concentrating the harmful constituents. There's so much we still don't know about kava outside of the main 6 kavalactones and FKs. There very well could be a constiuent that hasn't even been studied extensively that's present in Tudeis and not Nobles since they are genetically different plants.
 
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