Seminole City Council moves to ban kava

[verticity]

Its also irritating when the official says that "there's very little research;" In one sense that might be relatively true. However, I think 3000 years of human consumption and the place it holds in society in a place like Fiji should have SOME sort of weight in the argument!

I personally wouldn't care if they moved just to require the herb to be used according to traditional (or neotraditional) methods (i.e. not "Captain Kava Dabs" as pictured in the video, ugh).

We should point out that @Kapmcrunk is no relation to Captain Kava Dabs...

 

[recentreturn]

We should point out that @Kapmcrunk is no relation to Captain Kava Dabs...

Never even crossed my mind!

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Fortunately this ordinance proposal was killed ahead of the April 10th vote. All of the city council members and the mayor admitted they had no idea what either kava or K@ were and had never even heard of them before, resulting in lots of googling during the week. The attorney that drafted it added them to the list because he thought they were items the council would have liked added to the ban on synthetic drugs -- not knowing they weren't synthetic drugs. One of them found in his research that there are side effects of each (for kava, likely the potential liver damage claims) but he didn't think that the side effects outweighed the benefits for those who need to use them medicinally. The county sheriff also advised them that neither herb has posed a problem in the county.

Notes of importance :

No forms of kava should be presented as being harmful. Had their google searches pulled up credible articles explaining that certain types of kava were known to cause catastrophic liver damage, they may have felt there was good reason to continue with the ban. An advocacy group that would be able to respond to potential future situations like this (even if it's just monitoring news and contacting those involved and presenting educational material on safety and basic details of the plant) could prove invaluable in the future. The general public needs to be educated that kava and K@ are separate plants and work very differently in the body.

 

[The Kap'n]

In response to @SelfBiasResistor
Here's an article regarding the decision.

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/...in-pinellas-county-looking-to-ban-kava-and-K@

UPDATE: The proposed ban on Kava and K@ has been killed. Leaders in Seminole, FL say after a large turnout at a council meeting held Tuesday, March 27, hearing from supports of Kava and K@ and reading through dozens of emails from Pinellas County residents, they decided to take the idea off the table. The April 10th public hearing on this matter has also been canceled.

 

[The Kap'n]

Say, this would be a good place for this link: Reddit - Quitting K@. 4000+ members, you won't find any sites like this for kava!

Every time I end up on that page it reminds me of why we need to drive home the separation of the two. It also reminds me of how tortuous the state of withdrawal is to a human being. It fades in your memory if you experience it personally, but when you see someone else experiencing the same anguish it brings the feelings back hard.

Edit: Here's a quote from one of the posts "I avoided perc withdrawal by switching straight over to K@." Things like that are why it will be a monumental battle to keep that plant in the legal category. I feel for those people who need it legitimately and need for it to be available.

 

[ThePiper]

This is kind of a weird and probably ignorant pondering but I'm beginning to question whether kava bars in general are worth the crap that comes with them? Anything close to a traditional feel would be cool but most kava bars appear to be overpriced hipster joints that give me bad vibes whether they sell Krat or not... I expect we will at some point start seeing kava bars selling other recreational botanicals mixed with kava or alongside kava if K@ gets banned or just when the next new thing pops up. I've heard of a kava bar that sold kava capsules and possibly a mixed drink that featured kava mixed with phenibut... WAY worse idea than selling K@, and totally legal and risky for the industry

 

[The Kap'n]

This is kind of a weird and probably ignorant pondering but I'm beginning to question whether kava bars in general are worth the crap that comes with them? Anything close to a traditional feel would be cool but most kava bars appear to be overpriced hipster joints that give me bad vibes whether they sell Krat or not... I expect we will at some point start seeing kava bars selling other recreational botanicals mixed with kava or alongside kava if K@ gets banned or just when the next new thing pops up. I've heard of a kava bar that sold kava capsules and possibly a mixed drink that featured kava mixed with phenibut... WAY worse idea than selling K@, and totally legal and risky for the industry

I would give the bad apples analogy, but sadly it's only a few GOOD apples in the whole bunch. (BKH, Melomelo)

 

[evrnd]

The lack of sympathy and understanding about the similarities in the plight of both of these (unfortunately similar sounding) substances is one of my least favorite things about this forum. I get that the general consensus is "sorry everyone else, I need to save my own ass" and I even get why, but there are a lot of really intelligent people here and it's just not a good look. There are plenty of responsible and intelligent people that run in both circles (myself included) and even plenty that have about the same attitude about kava that a lot of you do about K@.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think K@ belongs in kava bars. I don't even think K@ belongs in K@ bars. Or in headshops for f**k's sake. I don't really love the idea of drinking kava and driving either but that's another thread. I just wish there were more people that were able to see that despite the ignorant reasons the media and government link the two plants, that there is a lot to gain from sharing the struggle instead of taking every opportunity to distance themselves from each other. Maybe they're here and just don't speak up as often. I don't know.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about what they use or don't use but I am hoping to point out that we're all trying to hold onto the same rights to choose what we use.

 

[The Kap'n]

It being wound up with kava is a result of using kava bars as a way of getting a foothold. Do you remember back in 2008 or so? K@ was sold at kava bars under the counter only. You couldn't find a single video on youtube showing anyone buying K@ from a bar. It was always at headshops or online. It was definitely NEVER advertised by these bars online. Now look at their twitter, facebook and instagram feeds. "TWO FOR ONE K@ COLLEGE NIGHT" (not exaggerating there) "RED VEIN on TAPPPPP!" and everything you could imagine. It's depressing to see a so called kava bar straight up bastardize a plant for financial gains regardless of whether that plant may have some very serious negative consequences down the road for habitual users that they introduced.

I feel my core issue isn't with K@, but with the way it's being marketed and handled wildly irresponsibly by the very ones supplying it to the populace.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I'm glad they didn't move forward with the ban, but it's a mixed blessing.

There is no way that kava not being banned is a mixed blessing. It's a win for all kava drinkers.

The lack of sympathy and understanding about the similarities in the plight of both of these (unfortunately similar sounding) substances is one of my least favorite things about this forum. I get that the general consensus is "sorry everyone else, I need to save my own ass" and I even get why, but there are a lot of really intelligent people here and it's just not a good look. There are plenty of responsible and intelligent people that run in both circles (myself included) and even plenty that have about the same attitude about kava that a lot of you do about K@.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think K@ belongs in kava bars. I don't even think K@ belongs in K@ bars. Or in headshops for f**k's sake. I don't really love the idea of drinking kava and driving either but that's another thread. I just wish there were more people that were able to see that despite the ignorant reasons the media and government link the two plants, that there is a lot to gain from sharing the struggle instead of taking every opportunity to distance themselves from each other. Maybe they're here and just don't speak up as often. I don't know.

I agree. Kava and K@ have their differences but for people who use them responsibly and medicinally, both are very valuable. On a normal day, I will take both for different reasons. Neither one is more important than the other, they each have their own benefit for me and it's important that I not lose access or risk going to jail to continue to benefit. The common mentality is that kava is better than K@ and that's the end of it. Both have powerful medicinal potential and both overlap a bit in what they can treat but neither one can completely replace the other.

I just don't like the closed-mindedness that people in the kava community have at times. I've never seen this in the K@ community and actually it's been the opposite. The people fighting for kratoms freedom are usually willing to fight for other herbs like kava. After watching that city council meeting, it's clear that the potential ban on kava was primarily blocked by K@ users. Most of the speakers were people who benefited themselves or had loved ones benefiting from medicinal use of K@. One man did speak of using both to treat his medical issues. Had this ban only included kava, it may have went through and that indicates a big need for a kava advocacy/activist group.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

It may be clear to you, but then again you are not aware of all that goes on. Other people (myself included) were heard by the Mayor and City Attorney in these proceedings. So I'd tread a bit lightly when you imply we should thank K@ advocates for saving kava, lol.

Fair enough and I wasn't suggesting we should be thanking K@ advocates, they just seem to turn out in higher numbers and take personal freedom more seriously in general and that is one area the kava community will need to improve to secure future legality.

Also, the kava/K@ bars aren't that big of a K@ source. Over the years of following several K@ communities, I had never heard of people buying K@ in a bar until people talked about it on this forum. There are lower grade commercial exporters who will sell and ship whatever they got to maximize profits just like the exporters in Vanuatu do with kava but that's not where everyone gets it from. There are many vendors who have relationships with the plantation owners and harvesters in Indonesia and obtain a premium product much the same way high quality kava vendors do.

 

[The Kap'n]

Also, the kava/K@ bars aren't that big of a K@ source. Over the years of following several K@ communities, I had never heard of people buying K@ in a bar until people talked about it on this forum. There are lower grade commercial exporters who will sell and ship whatever they got to maximize profits just like the exporters in Vanuatu do with kava but that's not where everyone gets it from. There are many vendors who have relationships with the plantation owners and harvesters in Indonesia and obtain a premium product much the same way high quality kava vendors do.

That's interesting information about the sources. Admittedly all we see is the front that's presented by kava bars which choose to sell K@.

 

[evrnd]

Fair enough and I wasn't suggesting we should be thanking K@ advocates, they just seem to turn out in higher numbers and take personal freedom more seriously in general and that is one area the kava community will need to improve to secure future legality.

Also, the kava/K@ bars aren't that big of a K@ source. Over the years of following several K@ communities, I had never heard of people buying K@ in a bar until people talked about it on this forum. There are lower grade commercial exporters who will sell and ship whatever they got to maximize profits just like the exporters in Vanuatu do with kava but that's not where everyone gets it from. There are many vendors who have relationships with the plantation owners and harvesters in Indonesia and obtain a premium product much the same way high quality kava vendors do.

Thank you. I was going to point this out.
I would hope it would go without saying, but anyone pushing K@ (or kava for that matter) as a legal high or as part of some bro-y bar promotion is not doing any of us in either camp any favors.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Here's a link to the video, public comments start at 10:27. I haven't watched it all, but it appears over half of those speaking on the issue defended kava.

There were some but definitely not most. At least one person talked about the relaxed and positive atmosphere of a local kava bar.

That's interesting information about the sources. Admittedly all we see is the front that's presented by kava bars which choose to sell K@.

Yeah, I know. As pointed out above, the bars are not doing any favors to the K@ community and are doing harm in many ways. Anyway, we'll probably see more similar situations come up. Our society doesn't have a good history when it comes to euphoria inducing psychoactive herbs.

 

[kastom_lif]

I agree. Kava and K@ have their differences but for people who use them responsibly and medicinally...

That's true. Both have medicinal uses. Only kava is non-habit forming. Only kava has thousands of years of history as safe recreational product.

The very fact that they're selling K@ in a bar suggests that it's not for medical use.

Ever wonder why some people buy Starbucks every day? Caffeine is addictive. I'm not in favor of banning K@ or coffee. Just pointing out that addiction is a powerful way to ensure repeat customers.

In the kava industry, we have lots of people working hard and talking about how to ensure the kava is safe, clean, and so on...

Where are the harm reduction people in the kr@ industry?