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The American Kava Association- Advocating for the responsible distribution of Kava in North America.

kl.TylerKTB

Kava Curious
Hello Kavasseurs,



Adil had mentioned that we were recently discussing the framework by which we can self police the current Kava resurgence that we are witnessing in the US.  We are particularly concerned with the manner in which Kava is being marketed in Kava bars.  I have seen some Kava bar models that have already gained and continue to gain negative media attention and present Kava in a very negative light.  If these types of establishments continue to operate in this manner, it is an absolute certainty that there will be swift regulation on our favorite plant.  On the other hand, if we can encourage existing bars and all future bars to adhere to a set of minimum standards, we can present Kava in a very positive light to the vox populous.  An industry that polices itself is far less likely to suffer regulatory consequences over one that is the wild west when it comes to standards.  I'd like to intervene early, while there are only 20 bars here in the US and set those standards high.  I have 7 bars already on board with the concept, as well as several suppliers.  Here is what I am proposing:



The American Kava Association would:



1. Set MINIMUM standards for the distribution of Kava in North America.

2. Issue memberships to 1. Consumers, 2. Retailers / bars, and 3. Suppliers (wholesalers and farmers) with incentives for each group i.e. Consumer members get discounts from approved bars who get discounts from approved suppliers.

3. Perform positive lobbying as well as leverage lobbying.

4. Pre-emptively publish positive press on Kava and establishments that serve it responsibly

5. Combat negative press that Kava may get - Mostly from irresponsible establishments.

6. Provide legal advice to retailers, bars, and suppliers to help them understand and mitigate risk.

7. Educate consumers about Kava and dispel myths about it.

8. Direct consumers to responsible, Association approved Kava establishments and be a watchdog for irresponsible ones.



I have been a secret shopper at several Kava Bars across the US and have seen many sustainable models that present Kava in a good and positive light.  It would be unfair to name names for either "good" or "bad" models so I won't.  I will say that the three bars here on the west coast are following a great model that reinforce the positivity associated with Kava without exploiting it or threatening its legal status.  All of the Bars I have been to thus far in Hawaii (7) are also operating a clean model.  This isn't the case for some of the places that I have visited in Florida.  "Drink till you puke", legally high, no age limit, among other horrible marketing schemes seem to be the mantra.



So being that this organization is in its infancy, I'd like to open it up to the community to assist in making some ground rules so that we can protect the plant.  I am starting with Kava Bars because I feel like irresponsible Kava Bars will present the biggest risk to Kava in the near future.



Here are some of the suggested guidelines:



An American Kava Association approved Kava Bar should:



1.  Serve Kava (what a concept), not K@, alcohol, synthetic drugs, boner pills, or Tobacco (Hookahs).

2.  Serve daily drinking Kavas as their 'house kava'

3.  Be allowed to serve other Kavas such as Tudei or Isa or Papua only to experienced drinkers and only if they are clearly labeled as such and it is somehow indicated that the effects are much different.

4.  Label each Kava strain that they carry in terms of common name and country of origin and preferably state the age of the root.

5.  Have an age limit.  Personally, I think its best to have 18+ after 9-10pm so that minors are not mingling with adults.

6.  Have preparation standards i.e. X grams per gallon.

7.  Have serving cut offs and refuse to serve overly intoxicated customers (be it alcohol or kava or otherwise).

8.  Not market kava as an alcohol alternative.  This is against FDA law.

9.  Not market kava by using health claims such as an anxiety cure, or a pain reliever.  The association will assist anyone who needs help distinguishing whats OK and whats not in terms of FDA laws.

10. Have knowledgeable staff that educate customers about the cultural importance of Kava in its native regions, who also know rule 9 above and don't make health claims while educating the customer.



These are ten quick ones that I could come up with, these are absolutely not set in stone, if you don't agree with one or more parts such as age limits etc., now is the time to open up a discussion.  i will be encouraging suppliers and Bar owners to chime in here in the next week so we can all become familiar with each other.



I will have the site up and going in about a month.  It will start basic and we can expand and grow as interest and support is gathered from those of us in the Kava industry.



The site will be strictly for advocacy, and will not be a discussion forum or a place to promote products.



http://americankavaassociation.org



I would appreciate everyone's input
 

Vekta

Notorious Lightweight
Review Maestro
Some of that is good, some of that is ok and some of that is a tad harsh.



#1-4 are good. I'd like to see that.



#5 is a tad harsh. I don't think children should be given kava willy nilly but I also don't think it should be yet another "off limits" thing to them. I think the age limit in Fiji is 16? That's a difficult one. I think we'd have to look at cultural and traditional examples as a guide line.



#7 (alcohol aside) is a tad weird. It's easy to see when someone is smashed on alcohol but at what point do we say someone is "intoxicated" on kava? I see that as being a can of worms and ripe for arbitrary judgment. Maybe some of the heavy kava varieties could use a limit just so people don't fall asleep in public. *shrugs*



#9 Well what about pain releaving kava salve?



#10 I've never told anyone that kava could treat or cure anything but it has been used to treat certain conditions. It's apart of kava's history. It's a huge part of why some end up trying kava. I agree, it shouldn't be pushed as a cure or treatment for obvious reasons but there are a lot of people out there that kava can kelp. To just never talk about it at all and make it taboo to do so might alienate a sizable group of people and actually take away part of what is so good about kava. Well...not take it away...just sweep it under the rug. As far as marketing goes, sure, don't do that. This one can also turn into a slippery slope though were we end up ignoring something about kava that has made it what it is.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Yes, yes! Oh this is what we want to see. Anything you may need to ask of us, please don't hesitate. Unfortunately there are no kava bars within 300 miles of me. I find none of these rules to be unreasonable.
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
I like it this far. I don't agree with some of the age stuff. In my opinion, as soon as you start slapping age restrictions on things that's when it becomes the new "fad" and next thing you know, kids are comin in with fake ID's. I think it should be if the child is under 14 he or she needs a parent or guardian to be with them.
 

Bula Kava House

Portland, OR
Kava Vendor
Kava Bar Owner
Nice, Tyler. If we actually can make something like this happen I think it would be great.



It seems like some people are questioning the age thing, but the truth will always remain that we're serving an intoxicant in a very litigious society. We post at Bula Kava House that drinkers "should be 18", we then lightly enforce it. As long as people seems responsible and close to 18 we don't card them. That way responsible younger folks and those that come in with parents for example can still enjoy some kava. If anything negative comes up we then have a little something covering our butts where we can say. "Look at the menu, it says you should be 18. If someone lied about their age or didn't disclose it, that's not our issue."



I think the guideline of not serving other intoxicants will be important moving forward. Personally, I like K@, but it worries me that a lot of kava bars are beginning to serve it. I don't think that it will be long before it is regulated, and if it becomes associated with kava who knows what could happen.



Keep me posted about how this goes. I'm in.
 

Vekta

Notorious Lightweight
Review Maestro
Krunkedout and Judd have something that seems more reasonable with regard to age. I have had a few people under 18 ask me about it and I have always told them to bring their parent(s) to come and talk with me. If that's not an option for whatever reason I gave them a packet of info and video links to take back to them so they can decide if kava is really something they want to experience. I do this for exactly the reasons Krunkedout mentioned. So far I haven't had one "kid" come back for more but a couple of the parents have.
Is this rule for only kava bars or for everyone involved? (ie- kava bars, vendors and consumers) Again, I'm agreeing with Krunkedout here. I think it'll create a problem in an effort to solve one that isn't really there.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Vekta said:
Krunkedout and Judd have something that seems more reasonable with regard to age. I have had a few people under 18 ask me about it and I have always told them to bring their parent(s) to come and talk with me. If that's not an option for whatever reason I gave them a packet of info and video links to take back to them so they can decide if kava is really something they want to experience. I do this for exactly the reasons Krunkedout mentioned. So far I haven't had one "kid" come back for more but a couple of the parents have.
Is this rule for only kava bars or for everyone involved? (ie- kava bars, vendors and consumers) Again, I'm agreeing with Krunkedout here. I think it'll create a problem in an effort to solve one that isn't really there. 
I think what you're doing there is freaking awesome. We need more responsible people like that in society. However when I was 16-17 I can't say I knew of more than 2 responsible people who were that age. I agree that age is something to carefully consider, but it seems like it would be more a legal issue seeing as if your customer is under 18 you all of a sudden have two extra people who can leverage legal action on you if something is done knowingly or unknowingly that would suggest some sort of negligence. If they're 18, then they're on their own to pursue action as an individual.
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
Kapmcrunk said:
Vekta said:
Krunkedout and Judd have something that seems more reasonable with regard to age. I have had a few people under 18 ask me about it and I have always told them to bring their parent(s) to come and talk with me. If that's not an option for whatever reason I gave them a packet of info and video links to take back to them so they can decide if kava is really something they want to experience. I do this for exactly the reasons Krunkedout mentioned. So far I haven't had one "kid" come back for more but a couple of the parents have.
Is this rule for only kava bars or for everyone involved? (ie- kava bars, vendors and consumers) Again, I'm agreeing with Krunkedout here. I think it'll create a problem in an effort to solve one that isn't really there. 
I think what you're doing there is freaking awesome. We need more responsible people like that in society. However when I was 16-17 I can't say I knew of more than 2 responsible people who were that age. I agree that age is something to carefully consider, but it seems like it would be more a legal issue seeing as if your customer is under 18 you all of a sudden have two extra people who can leverage legal action on you if something is done knowingly or unknowingly that would suggest some sort of negligence. If they're 18, then they're on their own to pursue action as an individual. 
all I know is that in Germany you can drink beer and wine at 14. And the kids there are far more mature then the kids here, and I believe it's because of the larger range of freedom and ability to make their own choice. And when you think about it, kava will have a limited appeal to people under 18 anyways. How many 16 year old preppy girls with justin Bieber screaming through their headphones would even tolerate the taste of kava? Not many. If the drinking age here was 14 there would be chaos, but that's because we as a society have instilled immaturity into the younger generation but continuously raising the drinking age and saying "you're not ready yet, but we'll tell you when you are" instead of giving them a different view that is more based on individual responsibility. There's no turning back now with alcohol because people under 21 have become so immature that if it were lowered there would be teens dying of alcohol poisoning on every street corner. But if we hadn't of kept raising it in the first place, the idea of alcohol would be less of a "drink till you're wasted" type thing and it would be viewed more as what it is, which is a beverage that demands respect. And I believe that starting out with regulated age limits will over time cause it to have the same connotations that alcohol has. That's just my opinion though. I wouldn't be serving kava to 8 year olds or anything, but I wouldn't restrict it from youth either. I would go so far as to say that maybe even if they are under 16 or 14 that their parents or guardians have to sign their consent to their child drinking kava.
 

The Kap'n

The Groggy Kaptain (40g)
KavaForums Founder
Krunkedout said:
all I know is that in Germany you can drink beer and wine at 14. And the kids there are far more mature then the kids here, and I believe it's because of the larger range of freedom and ability to make their own choice. And when you think about it, kava will have a limited appeal to people under 18 anyways. How many 16 year old preppy girls with justin Bieber screaming through their headphones would even tolerate the taste of kava? Not many. If the drinking age here was 14 there would be chaos, but that's because we as a society have instilled immaturity into the younger generation but continuously raising the drinking age and saying "you're not ready yet, but we'll tell you when you are" instead of giving them a different view that is more based on individual responsibility. There's no turning back now with alcohol because people under 21 have become so immature that if it were lowered there would be teens dying of alcohol poisoning on every street corner. But if we hadn't of kept raising it in the first place, the idea of alcohol would be less of a "drink till you're wasted" type thing and it would be viewed more as what it is, which is a beverage that demands respect. And I believe that starting out with regulated age limits will over time cause it to have the same connotations that alcohol has. That's just my opinion though. I wouldn't be serving kava to 8 year olds or anything, but I wouldn't restrict it from youth either. I would go so far as to say that maybe even if they are under 16 or 14 that their parents or guardians have to sign their consent to their child drinking kava.
Excellent point. I completely agree, but the legal problem still stands.
 

kl.ImSoCold2323

Kava Curious
I love all this high-level, well thought out, preemptive framework stuff.  I personally avoid it like the plague, but it instills me with confidence that there are people that know what steps to take to keep a good thing going, and actually take them...
About age, I agree with Judd.  Kava is an intoxicant and needs to be used responsibly, and since we're not forced to carry around ID cards with our IQ and a Responsibility Rating on them, age is the closest definitive human characteristic (at least according to our laws, which is what's important here).  And I imagine the magic number will be 18, if only for liability reasons.  Enforcing our own age limit (lightly or not) without any legal requirement to, can only say good things about the responsibility of kava users in the future.  The more we regulate ourselves, the less likely the government will feel the need to step in...
 

Vekta

Notorious Lightweight
Review Maestro
Well ok, here is what I'm thinking. Unfortunately it draws yet another parallel to alcohol consumption. My dad made the point that you can go sign up for the military at 17 and be sent off to fight a war but for some strange reason you're not old enough to have a drink in this country (in general). It seems a little weird to tell someone "yes, you can go fight for your country" and in the same breath tell them they're too young to have a drink. I'm not trying to say we treat kava the same as alcohol, it's the principle of the matter with regard to age. I just feel 18 is way too far up there and has more to do with the established norm and less to do with the point of the AKA to advocate the responsible distribution of kava. 



Yes there is liability for the businesses and unfortunately that has to be addressed. While some may think Judd's current system is too lax and the AKA suggestion too stringent, I think there is an acceptable compromise in between the two. Ok so, let say the age is set at 18. For legal reasons in America sure I guess that makes sense given our track record as krunkedout pointed out. I think the option can still be preserved for the younger crowd and still be legit.



This is were #2 would tie in. Perhaps kava can be served to those younger than 18 as long as a legal adult with membership to a kava establishment, or even the AKA itself, is present with them while consuming. The idea would need some fleshing out but the idea behind that is, hopefully kava bars can be family places to.
Again, is this rule only for Kava bars or will this also apply to things like online sales? I think it matters since you will probably have people noticing the regulations for kava bars but the lack of for online sales. Is that a bit of of a stretch or are we not yet at that point?
 

kl.ImSoCold2323

Kava Curious
I agree with your point about joining the military, as well as krunkedout's whole post about how the US is essentially making things worse.  Things are definitely screwed up here.  But that's not going to change anytime soon.  And that's essentially why we need the AKA, to try to stop the government from screwing kava up as well.
I don't think we'd have any chance going below 18.  "Minor."  Minors are not responsible for themselves, that falls on their parents.  And when they drop the ball, they immediately blame the government.  If you hear a news story about a 30 year old guy taking some substance and doing something stupid, you think, "what an idiot".  Change that to a 15 year old boy and it's "that substance is so bad!  The government needs to ban it immediately!"
I personally think that the kava age should be a bit lower, if only because there's no long term, life destroying effects, like addiction or lung cancer, but that would just lead to problems in this country.  But to your point, I don't think there'd be any problems serving minors as long as an adult assumed responsibility for them, though there may be legal issues with that I'm not aware of.
And online sales bring up an interesting point.  I would assume that any regulations determined should apply to sale in all forms.  Though even if this picks up, it would still be based on kind of an honors system, so maybe a "I am 18 or have adult consent" checkbox would suffice.  Don't ask me what to do when crossing country borders...  Of course, all of this seems to depend on every supplier complying, which, if it's not a law, I doubt will happen.  As long as there's one supplier doing all the wrong things, I'm not sure we'll have accomplished anything.
 

Vekta

Notorious Lightweight
Review Maestro
Unfortunately, I see what you mean ImSoCold. I see it on thew news almost daily even today. 18 is still a tad harsh but workable and probably appropriate for American society. I think it's essential to bring some of the culture that comes along with kava into the US but there is no getting around the fact that our society is what it is.
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
I once heard of a hookah lounge that served "herbal shisha" which doesn't contain tobacco; so they allowed minors above 14 I think to smoke as long as the parent came in and signed some stuff, the child was then given some type of wrist band that they would wear whenever they went there that let the servers know that they have a parents consent that has been documented properly. I'm not trying to draw any similarities between hookah and kava, I just thought their system regarding minors was rather interesting. I think something like that would work just fine with kava; have the parents sign, give the kiddies a wrist band or under 18 member card that they have to show. That way the parents can't sue and what not.
 

kl.Flank

Kava Curious
Krunkedout said:
I like it this far. I don't agree with some of the age stuff. In my opinion, as soon as you start slapping age restrictions on things that's when it becomes the new "fad" and next thing you know, kids are comin in with fake ID's. I think it should be if the child is under 14 he or she needs a parent or guardian to be with them.
The problem would be if you get a 15 year old krunked and he does something dumb and gets dead/arrested then the gov will restrict kava....
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
Flank said:
Krunkedout said:
I like it this far. I don't agree with some of the age stuff. In my opinion, as soon as you start slapping age restrictions on things that's when it becomes the new "fad" and next thing you know, kids are comin in with fake ID's. I think it should be if the child is under 14 he or she needs a parent or guardian to be with them.
The problem would be if you get a 15 year old krunked and he does something dumb and gets dead/arrested then the gov will restrict kava....
I do see your point here. However, kava is really not very mentally intoxicating; dumb ideas don't sound great like when you're drunk. So unless the kid was already a moron, I don't see there being a problem unless it was some freak accident unrelated to kava. Also, allowing them to be in a kava bar puts them in a safe environment where thy can enjoy kava and aren't out making a ruckus. The thing I really think would happen would be this: age limits are set up, kids who normally wouldn't be attracted to kava now are. Now the seed that says "well if it isn't fun, why are they restricting it?" and after that, they realize that they can simply click the 'buy' button online and bam. Now they are drinking kava in an un supervised situation where they could really do something stupid. My point is, some people under 18 will drink kava no matter what, but more will be attracted to it if they are told they're "too young". That's just my theory.
 

Vekta

Notorious Lightweight
Review Maestro
Quote removed due to privacy request
I think that's the real issue. With the age limit being set at 18 we're protecting kava from everyone else rather than giving an opening for everyone else to think that they need to be protected from kava.
We need a middle ground where the age is set at 18 but we have in place a way to include people a little younger than that and stay legit in the eyes of people not familiar with kava. (like we were sort of getting into before)
 

krunkedout

Kava Lover
Vekta said:
Quote removed due to privacy request
I think that's the real issue. With the age limit being set at 18 we're protecting kava from everyone else rather than giving an opening for everyone else to think that they need to be protected from kava.
We need a middle ground where the age is set at 18 but we have in place a way to include people a little younger than that and stay legit in the eyes of people not familiar with kava. (like we were sort of getting into before)
exactly. I don't want absolutely no restrictions. There just needs to be An in between. Young people could be the ones most benefited by kava. I personally think it could help some teens with alcohol or drug abuse history. I sure know it was a huge advantage for me to have found kava.
 

kl.TylerKTB

Kava Curious
A Kava bar ought to be a place where you feel comfortable taking your family and friends.  However, I would not feel comfortable providing a place where teenage girls and adult males are given the opportunity to mingle after hours while drinking a mild, albeit, an intoxicating drink.  Vekta, I really do feel like this one could go either way and I wholeheartedly understand your sentiments that it shouldn’t be just another thing that’s off limits.  Honestly, I’m undecided on this one myself.  Judd, I think has a reasonable compromise where an age limit is posted and selectively enforced depending upon the maturity level of the drinker.  My only other qualm with not having it 18+ is that the media, in a desperate attempt to fill 24 hours of news programming, may take the opportunity to run some horrible piece on kava bars being the new place for your teens to get legally intoxicated on the newest “legal high” and cops say they can’t do anything about it.  I’ve seen it time and time again with other herbs and an 18+ age limit would pre-emptively eliminate the possibility of a piece like this.

So far for the age limit issue we have a few suggestions:
  1. None – Kava should be enjoyed by everyone, regardless of age, following the traditional model of kava drinking countries.
  2. 18+
  3. Loosely and selectively enforced 18+
  4. 16+ with a parent or guardian
  5. 16+ with a waiver from parent / guardian
  6. 16+ until 9-10pm and then 18+ from 9pm-close.
 
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