Fair points but these kavas are there whether we talk about them or not. Better to have more information out there about them than less, no?
Tudei is the day!
- Thread starter Edward
- Start date
@Henry I do think we should remain respectful to the tradition that brought us kava in the first place, and that's the careful cultivation of kava over the however-many-generations it took to arrive at what we have now. Respectful in that we promote the consumption of kavas that are of the daily drinking variety. My question is where do we draw the line at "promote"? Are video reviews promotion of tudei kavas? Are online reviews a promotion? These kavas were labeled "Tudei" not by the administrators of this website or any website or association. They were decided upon long before we arrived. They were labeled "non daily drinking" kavas far before we ever tasted kava. I think promoting them acts directly in opposition to the deep knowledge of those who crafted what we know as kava today.
I also agree with @Edward. If the discussion must happen then it must happen. Giving a proper platform for discussion is, what I believe, one of our main goals. The topic, while touchy given the current climate and circumstances, will not simply go away.
We do what we can to educate. We've essentially achieved our first goal of truth in labeling. You absolutely can thank vendors who chose to work towards the same goal, and the associations that spun from our group here, you know which ones.
If you drink non-noble kavas daily they will "whoop yo ass". Be ye warned. It may not be the first session, or the first week, but you'll tie into a bag one day that will absolutely wreck you in every bad way you can imagine. From that point on it will be miserable to consume tudei.
Will it kill you? No, but could it turn someone off to kava forever? I say, very possibly. It would certainly ruin a newbie's first time. Especially if said newbie were to think of themselves already "Advanced" due to their history with substances. This would appear the best that kava has to offer to that person.
I welcome the input shared on this thread. Thank you everyone for keeping it respectful.
I also agree with @Edward. If the discussion must happen then it must happen. Giving a proper platform for discussion is, what I believe, one of our main goals. The topic, while touchy given the current climate and circumstances, will not simply go away.
We do what we can to educate. We've essentially achieved our first goal of truth in labeling. You absolutely can thank vendors who chose to work towards the same goal, and the associations that spun from our group here, you know which ones.
If you drink non-noble kavas daily they will "whoop yo ass". Be ye warned. It may not be the first session, or the first week, but you'll tie into a bag one day that will absolutely wreck you in every bad way you can imagine. From that point on it will be miserable to consume tudei.
Will it kill you? No, but could it turn someone off to kava forever? I say, very possibly. It would certainly ruin a newbie's first time. Especially if said newbie were to think of themselves already "Advanced" due to their history with substances. This would appear the best that kava has to offer to that person.
I welcome the input shared on this thread. Thank you everyone for keeping it respectful.
I've added a line to the intro to the video highlighting my inexperience with non noble kavas so with any luck no one will think I'm proclaiming to be some kind of expert.Sure, it's good to have more info
I've stated pretty clearly that although these kavas didn't "mess me up" I realise the potential for their abuse. I think/hope that it comes across pretty clearly in my video that although you can have a good time on these kavas they're not for everyday drinking and in fact I prefer a good, heavy noble kava.
It’s more like their potential to abuse you, and yes you’re clear about your warnings.
We obviously need to discuss this topic, or we wouldn’t continue to see it.
Blinkyrocket
Kava Enthusiast
Yeah, this type of thing is extremely bothersome. You see it a lot with almost every message that someone's trying to tell. It causes the opposite effect to the one it meant to cause. I suppose it wouldn't go as unheeded, if the exact reasons for the warning were listed as well. Some people tend to doubt things until they've had personal experience, though.
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recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
Its a really intriguing topic, just from a "science" point-of-view (but I'm also a person who can spend an hour reading about the various deadly poisons in a poisonous flower, with great interest). Its just too bad that it is so politicized right now. I'm not particularly interested in drinking Tudei since my general inclination is to follow tradition as the fruit of trial and error, a democracy of the dead. But I am truly fascinated by all the differing effects of all the different kavas, even P. Wichmanii, from a speculative/curiosity point of view. I think a lot more could be discussed regarding various ways to look at this topic; but its just all so polemical right now that I'm nervous to say too much for fear that people will take things personally.It’s more like their potential to abuse you, and yes you’re clear about your warnings.
We obviously need to discuss this topic, or we wouldn’t continue to see it.
I do have to say that I really admire Edward for his generally straight-forward approach and his restraint during recent debates and I also admire Henry for putting forth the noble-only view in a much more balanced way than some others recently have; me, I just have a hard time not shutting up.
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
In my experience the "two day" has always = two day effects of the heavy KLs. I was puzzled years ago when sellers of noble kava were making wild claims about tudei effects in comparison with noble. I've been having some pretty good effects from some of the stronger kava products available at the current time and I'm back to having very strong nausea again. All certified noble kava and not worse than what I experienced in the days of common tudei blends 4, 5+ years ago. The difference being in the days of tudei blends, I could sleep through the night and had no need for a relaxant in the morning.[/user]
recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
Yeah, I've been drinking one of the noble kavas you've been drinking and on night one I overdid it, going to 9-10 tbs and ended up puking and feeling doped the entire second day. User error; my fault; but it is a reminder that we can't be too quick simply to accuse everything that leaves an afterglow as being Tudei. But I don't have a ton of experience with Vanuatu kava and my nausea may just be caused by my not liking Vanuatu kava's flavor. I had issues with the taste of Kava Supreme too and think I even puked from that back when I was drinking it straight. That's why I prefer Fijian wakas.
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SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
That is right that his observations of that product isn't representative of all tudei and it very well may be the case that the tudei (not ISA) he tried was in fact one of the most mild of tudei cultivars but it's still significant that it wasn't a bad experience. If anything it provides a baseline that can be used to further explore what tudei has to offer for some people. Even if that list of 126 tudei cultivars only has a small amount of modern day useful plants, it's worth exploring.[/user]
SelfBiasResistor
Persist for Resistance!
In the current climate, it seems like new users are claiming everything is tudei if they don't like the effects or side effects for whatever reason. There is a lot of misinformation that's been put out in the campaign against non noble.
Pretty much all strong kava gives me nausea. I prefer Vanuatu over anything else but even fijians, hawaiian, etc bothers my stomach but usually only when the potency is high. In the past, I would get very nauseated even drinking Nene which I've always considered to be one of the weakest nobles but back then I did get appreciable effects from it. During this recent potency drought, I have had much less nausea but effects were minimal. Now that I have some stronger root, it's back to being nauseated. I'm starting to think it's actually the kavain or DHK that's causing it much more than the DHM as is usually blamed for negative side effects. Additionally Supreme and Stone have been some of the highest DHM nobles available lately and I get very little nausea from them.
Delicate Drunk
Kava Curious
Kapmcrunk, could you elaborate on this a little bit? Is this from your personal experience, or other sources?
recentreturn
Kava Enthusiast
He can speak for himself, of course; but I'm pretty sure he has stated that he got a really horribile case of dermo while drinking tudei.
Yes, precisely. It's my own personal experience coupled with the reports we heard from experienced members back when we saw rampant adulteration of noble kavas.
Delicate Drunk
Kava Curious
Were you drinking tudei on purpose? For how long? What strains? In high doses? Low doses?
Yes labeled. For somewhere in the ballpark of 8 months to a year. Isa. Three tablespoons micronized per night.
This is what made my back bleed and I got a bag that made me feel like the living dead. I quit and swapped to other kavas that we’re supposed to be noble as well as going traditional prep, and the dermo continued. The less serious but still rampant dermo eventually went away when I swapped from a labeled noble to a tested noble. Keep in mind that once I swapped to traditional prep I stablilized my dose to 40 grams. 40 grams of kava that is adulterated per day will give you dermo pretty heavily. Consuming 40 grams of tested noble kava per day leaves me with nothing more than a light lotion can take care of every morning after a shower. Still slightly dry skin but no flaking or peeling.
Delicate Drunk
Kava Curious
Yikes. I think I have had a few living dead bags before. Never got dermo but def felt like living dead. Lol.
It's good to see this discussion continuing in this vein. For a long time there have been certain factions seeking to control the debate on tudei simply stating that all tudei kava is bad without looking at the medicinal qualities of tudei/isa. It's time for some truth and honesty about this subject. I wanted to try these kavas and give my honest opinion which I have done. It's clearly not true that all non noble kavas are bad and will make you sick when consumed in moderation and occasionally or even regularly if you have a medical condition that will benefit from it. That's not to say that all non noble kavas would be pleasurable to drink and would not give negative effects. All I can say is that the one's I have tried have been fine to drink and enjoyable. I hope that by drinking these kavas and giving my honest opinion I have introduced some of that much needed truth into the debate and that the stigma/aura/mystique around some non noble kavas has been alleviated somewhat. As I've said before these kavas are out there and they are unlikely to go away so let's embrace them for what they are, drink them for the benefits they hold and stop believing the hype that they are inherently bad. They are just different, that is all. I still prefer a nice strong heavy noble kava to the tudei I have tried and so I'll continue seeking out the best kavas for me to drink.