Tudei is the day!

[The Kap'n]

The way I see it is that the "best" of tudeis (one or two cultivars with exceptionally low levels of fkb and perhaps relatively low dhm) may be in the best case scenario not much more likely to cause sickness than some of the heavier nobles and some people might actually find it enjoyable. Sure, some people might even think it's a better deal than weaker noble kavas. At the same time there are heaps of tudeis that will absolutely fuck people up and make people puke for hours, if not days. I have personally witnessed and experienced the effects of such kavas. In this context, the noble only position seems like a rather reasonable and safe approach for most vendors and most consumers. It makes sense not just because nobles are, in my view, superior, but also because it's way easier to detect non-noble than to detect "OK tudei" versus "12 hours of puking and shitting tudei", not to mention wild kava.

But everyone is free to do what they want and use what they feel like using.

I think those of us who have been personally affected by bad quality tudei kavas are more likely to have this position.

Also, I think we have to agree that the meantime between adverse events while drinking noble kava is much much wider than if we were drinking non-noble strains.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


This issue for me seriously boils down to "Will this kava eventually make a person sick or cause bad effects if they drink it continually". Our members well-being is the number one concern. I'm not saying anyone is advocating for them to be consumed daily, I'm just reiterating myself by saying "Non-noble kavas historically are not consumed on a daily basis"

Should this mean we completely ban the discussion of this type of kava?

No. If you look back over our history you can find where we've successfully facilitated many discussions on the topic. While some proponents of noble-only may feel discouraged by this, if we don't discuss it, it will only continue to be a mysterious and enticing kava offering.

Noble kava remains the creme of the crop. It's the best kava crafted over eons of human selected cultivation. When we acknowledge this, we give a nod to those who walked the earth far before we were ever thought of. Keeping that in mind, I don't think that discussion about the non-noble varieties should be suppressed. Star (shell) reviews and direct promotion of non-noble I can't say I'm leaning towards, though. Vanuatu has had laws on the book regarding these types of kavas for a long time, and I believe promotion and positive reviews of tudei is in direct opposition to that sentiment. Discussion, however, is not.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

"Will this kava eventually make a person sick or cause bad effects if they drink it continually"

Love that take on it. All puns aside, that's a Noble mission. but let me play devil's advocate: Would't ALL kavas make a person sick or cause bad effects if drank in excess? I will say the curve of intensity vs time is important. A kava with short lived effects wont stack up on you as quickly, so maybe you can drink it daily for a lot longer (perhaps indefinitely with smaller sessions) before one's neutral mood is affected by perpetual grogginess. But the user is important to consider. Some people aren't that sensitive to it, and others still may not mind the perpetual effects. Even if kava causes discomfort, its a conscious and individual choice if and how to use it. A tudei hangover may be an acceptable compromise (in the mind of the user) in the treatment of an ailment or addiction that's even worse. I'm not saying the forums should adopt a position of the treatment of ailments and/or addiction with Tudei kava. In fact, I think the forums should hesitate to take a unified position on ANY facet of the hows, whens, and whys of kava use. Let the members speak for themselves. i think we will find the majority of kava aficionados praising quality nobles, with many many new people arriving at that place over time as well.

 

[Bula Kava House]

You can check out the report linked in this thread: http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/massive-european-report-on-kava-quality-from-2015.13234/

Pages 46 and 50 reveal that fkb levels are on average 20-24 times greater in non noble.

Okay, I see that. I suppose you're right that averages can be that much different. Other studies I've seen must have been more limited in scope. That said, there are a reasonably high number of non-nobles that have close to the same amount of flavokavains as some noble kavas, so really it should be taken on a case by case basis.

 

[The Kap'n]

Love that take on it. All puns aside, that's a Noble mission. but let me play devil's advocate: Would't ALL kavas make a person sick or cause bad effects if drank in excess? I will say the curve of intensity vs time is important. A kava with short lived effects wont stack up on you as quickly, so maybe you can drink it daily for a lot longer (perhaps indefinitely with smaller sessions) before one's neutral mood is affected by perpetual grogginess. But the user is important to consider. Some people aren't that sensitive to it, and others still may not mind the perpetual effects. Even if kava causes discomfort, its a conscious and individual choice if and how to use it. A tudei hangover may be an acceptable compromise (in the mind of the user) in the treatment of an ailment or addiction that's even worse. I'm not saying the forums should adopt a position of the treatment of ailments and/or addiction with Tudei kava. In fact, I think the forums should hesitate to take a unified position on ANY facet of the hows, whens, and whys of kava use. Let the members speak for themselves. i think we will find the majority of kava aficionados praising quality nobles, with many many new people arriving at that place over time as well.

I certainly see what you're saying. Noble kavas consumed in excess will cause some of the same issues. Dermapothy, and the extreme lethargy being among them.The tudei hangover was clearly okay for me personally for an extended period of time. The difference to me is that noble kavas are much much less likely to cause these effects at normal doses even taken on a daily basis, where tudei is more likely to cause side effects at smaller doses on a consistent basis. I think what also plays into this is that we're always in information dissemination mode. We draw on our experiences that arise from a time when this information quite literally wasn't available.

 

[Bula Kava House]

I think those of us who have been personally affected by bad quality tudei kavas are more likely to have this position.

Also, I think we have to agree that the meantime between adverse events while drinking noble kava is much much wider than if we were drinking non-noble strains.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


This issue for me seriously boils down to "Will this kava eventually make a person sick or cause bad effects if they drink it continually". Our members well-being is the number one concern. I'm not saying anyone is advocating for them to be consumed daily, I'm just reiterating myself by saying "Non-noble kavas historically are not consumed on a daily basis"

Should this mean we completely ban the discussion of this type of kava?

No. If you look back over our history you can find where we've successfully facilitated many discussions on the topic. While some proponents of noble-only may feel discouraged by this, if we don't discuss it, it will only continue to be a mysterious and enticing kava offering.

Noble kava remains the creme of the crop. It's the best kava crafted over eons of human selected cultivation. When we acknowledge this, we give a nod to those who walked the earth far before we were ever thought of. Keeping that in mind, I don't think that discussion about the non-noble varieties should be suppressed. Star (shell) reviews and direct promotion of non-noble I can't say I'm leaning towards, though. Vanuatu has had laws on the book regarding these types of kavas for a long time, and I believe promotion and positive reviews of tudei is in direct opposition to that sentiment. Discussion, however, is not.

Dude! Your position is based on months of 4 tablespoons of likely maka full micro every single day. That's not traditional use. Who knows what your experience would have been with a shell of PNG Isa, properly strained daily.

Noble kavas are the creme of the crop for daily drinking for general anxiety, euphoria, etc. They are not necessarily the best for muscle pain and relaxation and insomnia. In Vanuatu, noble is not considered generally "better", just better for certain uses.

 

[Bula Kava House]

All science can be described as "just theories". This particualr theory is supported by genetic and historical accounts (e.g. the important paper on the Tongan-Vanuatuan kava trade in the context of the chemical composition of Tongan mutations). I think it's pretty clear kava has been developed from heavy dhm towards low dhm and high kavain and that only nobles have been spread across the Pacific despite the existence of an actual kava trade for the last 1000 years or so.

Sure, gravity is a theory, but it's well studied, has strong evidence, and is generally accepted as 100% accurate. Kava distribution and evolution is still very much understudied. There are whole communities of kava drinkers in West Papua, for example, which defies the distribution pattern that was generally accepted just recently. If you feel that the evidence for tudei being some sort of "beta" is solid and the case is closed for you, that's fine. I need more.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

Dude! Your position is based on months of 4 tablespoons of likely maka full micro every single day. That's not traditional use. Who knows what your experience would have been with a shell of PNG Isa, properly strained daily would have been.

Noble kavas are the creme of the crop for daily drinking for general anxiety, euphoria, etc. They are not necessarily the best for muscle pain and relaxation and insomnia. In Vanuatu, noble is not considered generally "better", just better for certain uses.

Good point. Micro is a hassle free choice for the uninitiated, and it was even more so in the pre Aluball days. It potentially has a much more profound effect on the experience than the family of kava.

 

[The Kap'n]

Dude! Your position is based on months of 4 tablespoons of likely maka full micro every single day. That's not traditional use. Who knows what your experience would have been with a shell of PNG Isa, properly strained daily would have been.

Noble kavas are the creme of the crop for daily drinking for general anxiety, euphoria, etc. They are not necessarily the best for muscle pain and relaxation and insomnia. In Vanuatu, noble is not considered generally "better", just better for certain uses.

Daily drinking is the context of which I'm speaking.

I had the same options available to me that anyone else on the internet did at the time and it wrecked me. Anyone could have had the same experience as I did. You can still toss and wash isa today.

Disclaimer: Bula Kava House has taken the steps long ago to address the situation outlined in the following paragraph, and it is no longer an issue today.

Not being nasty here, just giving you the rest of the story in order to give you a better picture. The old old BKH boroguru '13-'14 that I bought religiously gave me the same effects until I swapped to a tested noble. Skin peeling, flaking, lethargy all of it. 40 grams. Traditionally prepared. I don't talk about it because I know what the situation was during the time. It was the dawn of even questioning the nobility of the kavas we were receiving, and just to be real I don't hold it against anyone.

My experience with labeled tudei ends at my micronized adventure, but my experience with root that has non-noble mixed in extends years beyond that event.

Notice I'm not saying anything about specialized use cases, I'm talking about daily drinking.

In Vanuatu, it would be odd if they didn't think noble to be "better", considering they have laws that prevent the exports of those that are not, but I'm not the one that writes the laws, so I wont attest that I understand the situation completely.

 

[HeadHodge]

I think this tudei thread beats an all time record for remaining in the Lounge!!

 

[Bula Kava House]

Daily drinking is the context of which I'm speaking.

I had the same options available to me that anyone else on the internet did at the time and it wrecked me. Anyone could have had the same experience as I did. You can still toss and wash isa today.

Disclaimer: Bula Kava House has taken the steps long ago to address the situation outlined in the following paragraph, and it is no longer an issue today.

Not being nasty here, just giving you the rest of the story in order to give you a better picture. The old old BKH boroguru '13-'14 that I bought religiously gave me the same effects until I swapped to a tested noble. Skin peeling, flaking, lethargy all of it. 40 grams. Traditionally prepared. I don't talk about it because I know what the situation was during the time. It was the dawn of even questioning the nobility of the kavas we were receiving, and just to be real I don't hold it against anyone.

My experience with labeled tudei ends at my micronized adventure, but my experience with root that has non-noble mixed in extends years beyond that event.

Notice I'm not saying anything about specialized use cases, I'm talking about daily drinking.

In Vanuatu, it would be odd if they didn't think noble to be "better", considering they have laws that prevent the exports of those that are not, but I'm not the one that writes the laws, so I wont attest that I understand the situation completely.

There are surely people in Vanuatu who believe noble to be better for daily, regular use and for export, but from someone who has spent time there, I can tell you that the general sentiment is not that noble is better. Just different. It's also worth noting that the laws weren't written by the farmers and the community as a whole. They were written by politicians at the advice of foreigners. No, I'm not saying there's some big conspiracy. It's just the facts.

For your tudei use, what I'm saying is that micro isn't traditional. If someone is prone to kava's side effects, I don't suggest micro at all. And if someone is going to drink it, makas should be removed. Traditional use of one of the nicer tudei kavas likely wouldn't have affected you the way it did. By the time you switched to a kava that was possibly noble mixed with some tudei, you were already fighting horrible dermo. And who knows what tudei was mixed in. They're not all the same.

I feel like doing a "Super Size Me" type of experiment with some PNG Isa. Drink it daily for a while and measure the effects on my body.

 

[The Kap'n]

There are surely people in Vanuatu who believe noble to be better for daily, regular use and for export, but from someone who has spent time there, I can tell you that the general sentiment is not that noble is better. Just different. It's also worth noting that the laws weren't written by the farmers and the community as a whole. They were written by politicians at the advice of foreigners. No, I'm not saying there's some big conspiracy. It's just the facts.

For your tudei use, what I'm saying is that micro isn't traditional. If someone is prone to kava's side effects, I don't suggest micro at all. And if someone is going to drink it, makas should be removed. Traditional use of one of the nicer tudei kavas likely wouldn't have affected you the way it did. By the time you switched to a kava that was possibly noble mixed with some tudei, you were already fighting horrible dermo. And who knows what tudei was mixed in. They're not all the same.

I feel like doing a "Super Size Me" type of experiment with some PNG Isa. Drink it daily for a while and measure the effects on my body.

Agreed. Micronized is absolutely not traditional, and the way I was downing it wasn't either, however at the time all that happened we had many many people with the same issues who weren't drinking tudei only kava. It was rampant at the time. I will admit though, times have certainly changed. I hear about dermo VERY rarely these days.

About the PNG, maybe someone needs to that's appropriately visible such as yourself. I only give advice on this based on my experience, and to either back it up or refute it would help me either put it to bed or legitimize it.

 

[Bula Kava House]

Agreed. Micronized is absolutely not traditional, and the way I was downing it wasn't either, however at the time all that happened we had many many people with the same issues who weren't drinking tudei only kava. It was rampant at the time. I will admit though, times have certainly changed. I hear about dermo VERY rarely these days.

About the PNG, maybe someone needs to that's appropriately visible such as yourself. I only give advice on this based on my experience, and to either back it up or refute it would help me either put it to bed or legitimize it.

The good thing about the noble only prominence is that it has reduced the amount of tudei unknowingly mixed with noble. Purity of kava has definitely increased dramatically overall. Unfortunately, I feel like the pendulum swung too far as to vilify some non-noble kava varieties that don't cause negative side effects and can be beneficial to people. I think it would be good for the industry to come to a place where certain vendors could sell properly labeled, pleasant non-noble cultivars.

 

[Señor Chuggs]

The good thing about the noble only prominence is that it has reduced the amount of tudei unknowingly mixed with noble. Purity of kava has definitely increased dramatically overall. Unfortunately, I feel like the pendulum swung too far as to vilify some non-noble kava varieties that don't cause negative side effects and can be beneficial to people. I think it would be good for the industry to come to a place where certain vendors could sell properly labeled, pleasant non-noble cultivars.

Like Boroguru and Koniak .. I miss those. If you can still source those you can count on me to buy a few lbs

 

[Bula Kava House]

Like Boroguru and Koniak .. I miss those. If you can still source those you can count on me to buy a few lbs

If I'm being honest, the Boroguru was a noble that at times probably had a bit of tudei in it. It was pretty nice nonetheless. I prefer consistency and predictability and correct labeling though.

The Koniak on the other hand was smooth and really nice, and was 100% non-noble. My store tracks what people search for at bulakavahouse.com and "Koniak" is still a common search term, so you're not the only one who misses it.

 

[Edward]

I think this tudei thread beats an all time record for remaining in the Lounge!!

It's certainly been the calmest and most rational so far

 

[The Kap'n]

@Bula Kava House or I could send you a few tablespoons of this

I still have the offending bag of the kava that caused me so much anguish about 8 years ago.

 

[Groggy]

*Going off topic...
Wow, you still have kava from 8 years ago??? Holy crap...How much kava do you have man?!?
Carry on..*

 

[Bula Kava House]

@Bula Kava House or I could send you a few tablespoons of this

View attachment 9292
I still have the offending bag of the kava that caused me so much anguish about 8 years ago.

I'll pass. I rarely fux with micro. Very unlikely I'd drink micro tudei. I'm seriously considering my "Super Krunk Me" experiment though. I'd use traditionally prepared Isa. It would be a valuable little test because I drink noble kava daily currently. I could get some baseline health tests and keep a daily journal about how I feel, with photos of any potential dermo.

 

[The Kap'n]

I'll pass. I rarely fux with micro. Very unlikely I'd drink micro tudei. I'm seriously considering my "Super Krunk Me" experiment though. I'd use traditionally prepared Isa. It would be a valuable little test because I drink noble kava daily currently. I could get some baseline health tests and keep a daily journal about how I feel, with photos of any potential dermo.

Smart move on the pass. Plus mailing it would probably break some Geneva convention ruling on biological weapons.

 

[kastom_lif]

I'll pass. I rarely fux with micro. Very unlikely I'd drink micro tudei. I'm seriously considering my "Super Krunk Me" experiment though. I'd use traditionally prepared Isa. It would be a valuable little test because I drink noble kava daily currently. I could get some baseline health tests and keep a daily journal about how I feel, with photos of any potential dermo.

It would be super interesting to see veteran kava drinkers compare isa with niVan medicinals and tudeis. The adulterated kava coming out of Vanuatu is more likely to contain local tudeis like palisi or fabu.