Kava and K@: A Legal and Ethical Perspective

[Rick.Sanchez]

Something I haven't seen mentioned is some of the action taken against the DEA. The DEA only retains the authority to schedule drugs because Congress gave them the authority to schedule substances, as @Deleted User mentioned, that are deemed an iminent threat to the public. A bipartisan group of legislators in both congress AND the Senate have stepped in to let the DEA know that there is no evidence to suggest K@ is an iminent public hazard, so by trying to schedule K@, they are clearly overstepping their authority. This why K@ advocates believe there's a real chance the DEA will end up doing nothing, and this is why they have done nothing up to this point. Also, the FDA does not retain the authority to deem K@ legal or illegal at this time, although it clearly is not considered a legal dietary supplement of any kind.

At this juncture, the real threat is new leglislation. Currently, there is a new senate bill that would give the DEA broad authority to schedule virtually any psychoactive substance including Kava! I cannot recall the name of the bill, but I would highly recommend looking it up. The language is extremely ambiguous, and it would allow the DEA significantly more discretion in scheduling new substances.

I think the biggest concern here is that we're giving the DEA the authority to make the drug laws, execute the drug laws, and enforce the drug laws. As it stands, IMO, they have far too much power. The FDA and congress were originally meant to work together to regulate drugs, and it was supposed to be on a scientific basis. Now, that authority has been slowly handed over to the DEA who seem less interested in science and more interested in fear mongering.

Update: the new bill is the SITSA act. I don't have time to post the exact language, but I know that one part of it would allow the DEA to schedule any substance that binds the same receptors as a controlled substance. That would allow them to schedule both kava and cheese

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I'm just trying to encourage discussion here. I also don't like K@ being served in Kava bars. It's a huge shortcoming. The different effects clash.

 

[Deleted User01]

To answer the question, "what do we want to accomplish". I would say to separate Kava from K@ and not let people associate the two. And that probably means asking Kava Bars to not serve K@. That may not be realistic so perhaps they could pass out literature that shows how distinct Kava is from K@.

 

[Deleted User01]

If @Kavasseur is right about K@ being the profitable part of the Kava Bar, then that's just Sad. Very, very sad! People who gravitate towards kava are looking for a non-narcotic solution and not one that acts like opiods (which is a huge nationwide problem). Perhaps Kava Bars should change their names to Botanical Bars. And of course this begs the question, can a Kava Only Bar succeed financially in the Mainland U.S.A? Frankly, I do all my Kava drinking at home and I don't care about Kava Bars and feel no need to visit one. It's like going to a beer bar when I have the best craft been in my fridge and at 1/5 the price. But the point is, "they can give kava a bad reputation" and nobody wants that.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

I'm being descriptive here, not prescriptive. I wasn't justifying anything. I was just pointing out that this is what many Kava bar owners have told me.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

I'm being descriptive here, not prescriptive. I wasn't justifying anything. I was just pointing out that this is what many Kava bar owners have told me.

If I understand correctly, @Kavasseur was pointing out that if we get rid of the K@ from kava bars, than we likely won't have kava bars anymore. Far fewer at least.

I don't think it's entirely evil for kava bars to make the Lion's share of their profit selling K@ if theyre also introducing many people to kava who might never otherwise learn about it. Maybe we'll eventually reach a point where enough people understand kava that they won't need to sell K@.

I think the real evil would be people spreading misinformation or opening a kava bar with the express purpose of profiting from K@ sales. Otherwise, I certainly wouldn't call it evil for places to sell K@ to pay the bills.

 

[Rick.Sanchez]

Entrepreneur: I’d like to borrow money to start a kava bar.
Banker: I’ve looked over your business plan, and it shows you will lose money selling kava. Why should I make this loan?
Entrepreneur: Because kava is great stuff, and it will help a lot of people.
Banker: That’s an admirable goal, but I must insist on financial responsibility. How will you pay the loan?
Entrepreneur: I’ll do that by selling K@ at my kava bar. It’s very popular and profitable.
Banker: So why don’t you just open a K@ bar?
Entrepreneur: Well… I can’t. It’s illegal to sell K@ for human consumption.
Banker: I see. So I assume you will not advertise K@. How will people know you have it?
Entrepreneur: I can put up some temporary signs, and, you know, word gets around…
Banker: So you intend to service this loan through illegal activities?
Entrepreneur: Well, yea… But it’s for a good cause, kava is great stuff! We really need to educate people about kava, and this is the best way to do it!!!
Banker: Would you excuse me for a moment? (leaves room, facepalm, calls police)

That's the type of thing I'm saying would not be good, and it's not always this cut and dry. Thing is, K@ is not
Illegal, and it's not illegal to sell. It's illegal to sell for human consumption. That's why there's cover for so many businesses to sell K@ in spite of all the legal ambiguity.

Also, the police would not be able to do anything in that situation.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Don't be so despirited. There is a real Kava renaissance going on in America.

 

[The Kap'n]

I suppose it must be pretty hard to make a living from kava alone in the states then. I wonder how Melo Melo (the only genuine, kava-only bar I know of) has managed to succeed where everyone else has seemingly failed..

I would say the offering of alternative options that do not include K@, with the right creativity, would be able to fill in any gap left by the absence of K@. I would think, at least.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Wow. So basically much of the so-called "kava renaissance" in America has been a sham? When the media report about "over 100 kava bars in America" they actually talk about K@ bars using kava as a front or (in the best case scenario) a non-profit side project? This is sad. I mean it's obvious that kava is becoming more popular, but it seems at least some of this increasing popularity is fake news and media stories about kava are in fact media stories about the rise of K@.

I don't see any new, big interest in kava. There is only 1 person that I know that has even heard of it without me telling them about it.

One of the big reasons for kratoms recent rise in popularity is the failed war on drugs that's fueling the opiod crisis. In many areas it is nearly impossible to legally obtain a pain killer. Many people rely on it for pain management, depression, anxiety, ibs, etc. The thing I don't like about these conversations is they always devolve into demonizing K@ and the people who benefit from it.

It really sounds like there needs to be a new organization to replace the American Kava Association for self regulation and proper product promotion.

 

[Edward]

No kava bars in the UK at all so hence no K@ sellers either. There are some european based websites that will sell you K@ but I'm not really interested. It does make me wonder if a kava bar in the UK would be profitable at all. If they're struggling in the US with hawaii (?! ok, I've had a lot of heavy kava so I can't spell hawaii now, or is that right? I don't know) and all the existing advertising and publicity that kava has had in the US then it will take years and years even after a lifting of the ban in the UK for a stand alone kava bar to make money.

On the broader point though I don't think that kava bars should be used as a front to sell other things if that could potentially damage the reputation of kava, seems an obvious point. However I can see the other side in that without the K@ sales a lot of the kava bars might not be there. Tough one. I'm sure I had a clearer point at some stage. Oh well.

 

[kasa_balavu]

It does make me wonder if a kava bar in the UK would be profitable at all. If they're struggling in the US with hawaii (?! ok, I've had a lot of heavy kava so I can't spell hawaii now, or is that right? I don't know) and all the existing advertising and publicity that kava has had in the US then it will take years and years even after a lifting of the ban in the UK for a stand alone kava bar to make money.

There are around ten thousand Fijians in the UK. That'd be a good demographic to start with

 

[Edward]

There are around ten thousand Fijians in the UK. That'd be a good demographic to start with

Might be difficult getting them all into the same kava bar at the same time though

 

[verticity]

That's the type of thing I'm saying would not be good, and it's not always this cut and dry. Thing is, K@ is not
Illegal, and it's not illegal to sell. It's illegal to sell for human consumption. That's why there's cover for so many businesses to sell K@ in spite of all the legal ambiguity.

Also, the police would not be able to do anything in that situation.

I think it pretty clearly is not legal to sell in a bar, especially if they are literally serving cups of prepared "tea". Now, by pointing out the fact that it is not legal to sell for human consumption, I am not trying to demonize it. As I have said, I do hope that it's legal status will be clarified in a favorable way, because it does seem like it is helpful to a lot of people. However, from the perspective of a kava bar owner concerned with staying on the right side of the law, it just seems extremely risky.

There was one kava bar owner here who actually said something to the effect that they sometimes might recommend K@ for customers who are experiencing aches and pains after working out. Now, unless that establishment is equipped with microscopes, test tubes, and samples of Mayer's reagent so that customers can distract themselves from their aches and pains by examining the K@ leaves under microscopes and learning about qualitative tests for alkaloids, I'm pretty sure there is nothing legal about that situation. It seems like it is basically the same deal as the web sites where you can buy magic mushroom spores "for research and educational purposes only".

Incidentally, the police can and have done exactly that--see the recent thread about the kava bar who was denied a permit in Florida. I don't think anyone has gone to prison or anything, but they are capable of shutting down establishments, or preventing them from being opened.

 

[KavaKhris]

So, I am a former K@ user. I used it every day for 1 year, did not intend to use it every day. I quit 2 weeks ago because it was getting out of hand.
K@ is an opioid, straight up no arguing. Not only is it an opioid (agonist of mu-opioid receptors), it also agonizes the same receptors as caffeine, has serotonergic activity, as well as a couple other things mentioned in Dr. McCurdy's most recent talk on it (he is an avid K@ researcher). So in reality, when you take K@ you are not JUST taking an opioid, you are taking a cocktail of substances that affect many different systems, most notably the opioid receptors. This is why withdrawal from K@ can, for really heavy users, be worse or last longer than those coming off of stronger and harder opiates.
I became addicted fairly quickly, and withdrawal was pretty hellish for several days, with lingering issues for a week. I can say I'm safely on the other side now but damn, the K@ community (r/K@) white washes it, painting the plant akin to coffee. NOPE.
It is frustrating to see kava lumped in with K@ (is it that they both begin with k?? lol) because there is NO COMPARISON.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I've just read that apparently one trick used by the "kava" bars selling K@ is to sell K@ in "sealed" cups with a "not for human consumption" sticker. The bar owners claim they just sell "sealed liquid" and have no responsibility for what their customers do with the liquid, even when it actually does get consumed at their bar. I find it hard to believe that the authorities would accept such arguments if they chose to go after K@, but I am not sure how your food/health authorities work..

That is crazy... If K@ were scheduled, there would not be any tolerance. There is a big difference between food/health and drug enforcement. The reason these establishments are getting by is likely the fact that the general population knows as little about K@ as they do kava. That and the fact there are not people overdosing or showing up in the emergency rooms because of it.

 

[KavaKhris]

I've just read that apparently one trick used by the "kava" bars selling K@ is to sell K@ in "sealed" cups with a "not for human consumption" sticker. The bar owners claim they just sell "sealed liquid" and have no responsibility for what their customers do with the liquid, even when it actually does get consumed at their bar. I find it hard to believe that the authorities would accept such arguments if they chose to go after K@, but I am not sure how your food/health authorities work..

I don't think anyone is going to be messing with K@, as scheduling is in the works. Why chase after something you can't catch when you can just wait for it to get tired? I feel bad for those that do need K@ to function, it can be a great help to some, but the scheduling (in the US at least) seems totally inevitable and quite imminent.