Vendor Concerns

[SelfBiasResistor]

The fact that some pretend as though Chris would just be buying some random vanuatu kava is absurd based on flavor alone

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered as much if I suspected that he was reselling Vanuatu kava. What bothers me is there seems to be no safety checks in place. No questions, no BS, just cash for kava. If we are to take him at his word, he buys other growers kava that's already been processed "by the truck load" if brought to him. That would explain why he can't give any information out on growing conditions, age or processing.

 

[recentreturn]

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered as much if I suspected that he was reselling Vanuatu kava. What bothers me is there seems to be no safety checks in place. No questions, no BS, just cash for kava. If we are to take him at his word, he buys other growers kava that's already been processed "by the truck load" if brought to him. That would explain why he can't give any information out on growing conditions, age or processing.

I am not willing to settle on the conclusion that this is how he's getting his kava, since a) he says it isn't, and b) one craigslist ad wouldn't even establish a pattern (could be a fluke event at a difficult time). However, if he is removing makas from micronized and processing fresh kava juice to make instant, then it would not be possible for those to be being processed by anyone else, right?

 

[Myk]

I can understand your feelings based on experience but just a couple of points here



The sticker is a marketing gimmick at best. TK doesn't do much and for a while hasn't been doing any testing of kava. They can't provide lab issued COAs and the TK sticker only represents an acetone test (at best). I don't need a sticker to assure me that KWK is not going to source tudei but I would like to have a lab analysis if GHK is going to sell me Hawaiian kava grown in some random persons backyard (Ie. one of his gardens).



I would agree the kava had been consistent during that time. If you bought kava from him with harvest dates of late 2013-mid 2015, you would notice a big drop in quality and potency. I used to enjoy his kava in the past but the quality dropped substantially and when I questioned him, he would not talk about it. That's when I tried getting info on the "testing" done and found out the sticker really doesn't mean what people think it does.



I agree with you for the most part. It would be good to get as many vendors on board with transparency and real safety testing but I will buy kava that's not tested if the vendor doesn't appear to be shady, is knowledgeable and doesn't get upset when someone questions him.

Safety testing? Tudei may have some unpleasant side effects but it's not dangerous.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

However, if he is removing makas from micronized and processing fresh kava juice to make instant, then it would not be possible for those to be being processed by anyone else, right?

You would think. Then again, other people make and sell instant and micro so there are other ways to obtain it. I'm not saying that's whats happening here and don't really want to go down that path. The real pattern is the dishonesty and making claims that set the vendor apart from others that repeatedly turn out to not be true. At a certain point, I just can't really believe someone like that.

Safety testing? Tudei may have some unpleasant side effects but it's not dangerous.

I know and agree. By safety I meant mold/bacteria/adulterants/fillers, etc. I'm not in the "some kava is dangerous" camp.

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

You would think. Then again, other people make and sell instant and micro so there are other ways to obtain it. I'm not saying that's whats happening here and don't really want to go down that path. The real pattern is the dishonesty and making claims that set the vendor apart from others that repeatedly turn out to not be true. At a certain point, I just can't really believe someone like that.



I know and agree. By safety I meant mold/bacteria/adulterants/fillers, etc. I'm not in the "some kava is dangerous" camp.

I can understand how some consumers would be turned off by Chris's lack of transparency. And that's their right as consumers in a free market.

 

[Zac Imiola (Herbalist)]

Personally, I wouldn't be bothered as much if I suspected that he was reselling Vanuatu kava. What bothers me is there seems to be no safety checks in place. No questions, no BS, just cash for kava. If we are to take him at his word, he buys other growers kava that's already been processed "by the truck load" if brought to him. That would explain why he can't give any information out on growing conditions, age or processing.

Lol you just like running in circles... if you honestly think someone can maintain an herbal business through craigslist ads then you are clearly not thinking for yourself.

 

[kastom_lif]

I can understand how some consumers would be turned off by Chris's lack of transparency. And that's their right as consumers in a free market.

How is Chris not as transparent as other vendors? We know he grows his ʻawa on the Big Island, which to be fair IS rather big... but let's compare...

Kava Time products: origin also listed to particular islands, e.g. Kadavu, Taveuni, Beqa, or to regions of Viti Levu such as Savusavu.

Kalm With Kava: Tongan and Fijian products are simply from somewhere in Tonga or Fiji. Mike joined a virtual kava circle once from Tongatapu. He really was in Tonga, anyhow. KWK Borongoru was said to be from somewhere on Pentecost, though he hasn't named the village. Melomelo was confirmed from man Ambae on FB to be from north Ambae.

Kavafied Fijian, Squanch, Wakacon, Dua na Bilo, Kava Vinaka, and so on: All we can presume is it's purchased somewhere in Fiji. The root may or may not be 100% Fijian. (And guys, I love all your kava. This isn't meant to make anyone look non-transparent.)

Kavafied Tongan: Well, we know there's a family farm on 'Eua, but the plants are young. The kava might be from elsewhere.

Bula Kava House melomelo: Judd has said that it's not from Ambae but no other details. So, might be Pentecost, Santo, Maewo... I drank a bunch last week and had a dream about a volcano erupting, so... maybe Ambrym? Nahhh...

So I just gotta ask, where is the alleged lack of transparency? Who else has shown their gardens complete with GPS coordinates? Or at least, the farm gates or local middlemen, where our vendors pick up the roots? Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

I don't understand how taking pictures of a kava field becomes an equivalent to disclosing gps coordinates. I don't understand how never disclosing COAs is transparent. I don't understand how "you're just gonna have to trust me" is transparent.

Having said that... I guess you completely missed all of what I said about liking Chris's kava... How his kava is consistently good... How he's a nice guy who ships quickly and also shares lots of cultural/historical knowledge of kava. I support GHK with dollars as a customer.... But I have to concede that I don't think his kava comes from a big farm. Why is that so terrible of me to say?

 

[Bula Kava House]

We don't share GPS coordinates of farms or the names of exporters because we don't want competitors gaining access to our products. The better among us are now being quite transparent with test results though.

I can say that if I had thousands, or even dozens of acres of kava, I wouldn't miss out on that marketing opportunity. I'm talking daily photos (current), videos, drone footage, live webcam (lol), the works! I'd probably do tours too, something most farmers do. That's just me though, because when you create your own supply you don't have the same worries about competitors, so it's a different situation.

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

I just estimated that since November of 2016, I've probably bought 20 pounds from ghk? I honestly don't even know. Maybe more. I've not once ever had a kava that was "bad" and I've tried almost all 13 varieties (still a couple I'm missing). Some I liked more than others but that was personal preference not the quality of the kava. The Hawaiian also has a very distinctive taste. While all the varieties had their subtleties, you could still taste Hawaii

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

We don't share GPS coordinates of farms or the names of exporters because we don't want competitors gaining access to our products. The better among us are now being quite transparent with test results though.

I can say that if I had thousands, or even dozens of acres of kava, I wouldn't miss out on that marketing opportunity. I'm talking daily photos (current), videos, drone footage, live webcam (lol), the works! I'd probably do tours too, something most farmers do. That's just me though, because when you create your own supply you don't have the same worries about competitors, so it's a different situation.

I can see how someone who truly loves kava deep down for the right reasons.... Could not want to market it like that. I can see it being viewed as a capitalistic, western violation of something sacred.

But.... The recent price fluctuations possibly show he's a shrewd businessman too lol.

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

I can see how someone who truly loves kava deep down for the right reasons.... Could not want to market it like that. I can see it being viewed as a capitalistic, western violation of something sacred.

But.... The recent price fluctuations possibly show he's a shrewd businessman too lol.

I should really be clear that I think Chris's recent price fluctuations are related to kava as a global commodity really. It's all supply and demand

 

[kasa_balavu]

We don't share GPS coordinates of farms or the names of exporters because we don't want competitors gaining access to our products.

Makes perfect sense.

The better among us are now being quite transparent with test results though.

To be fair, you only started doing this recently. Would you say that your kava couldn't be trusted *before* you started posting results?
In any case, kudos to you for posting the COA's. Hopefully soon, all vendors will be doing the same.

I can say that if I had thousands, or even dozens of acres of kava, I wouldn't miss out on that marketing opportunity. I'm talking daily photos (current), videos, drone footage, live webcam (lol), the works! I'd probably do tours too, something most farmers do..

I've always thought this was a big missed opportunity. That said, I've still seen more pics from him (of the kava, of the the dryer, of the machines, etc) than from any other vendor barring (recently) Kava Time.

I assume he exaggerated about the size of this farm, but the fixation on it seems to be a tad overblown. IIRC he made these exaggerations in responses to people in forum threads, not on any product sales pages. In any case, nobody buys their kava from someone based on the size of their farm.

It's not like he was making claims about his products, such as calling a product "7yr Mahakea" when in fact he'd already harvested all his 7yr old kava and was now selling 4yr old Mahakea under the same label. No, that would be illegal, unethical, shifty, and perhaps even grounds for a ban from the forums? (Exaggerating here to expose the hypocrisy)

There is nastiness all around, but thankfully most of it is invisible to the average kava consumer. In any case, thanks to the great work of GS, the online kava scene is vastly better for consumers than it was before all of his hard work. Individual vendors pushing the envelope further (like BKH posting regular COA's) is going to spur other vendors to do the same, and one way or another, all this shit and nastiness will eventually pass.

When that day comes, I hope we can all sit together in a big kava circle and get to know each other as humans, and not just opponents on the other side of the debate.

 

[Bula Kava House]

@kasa_balavu AKA Garry remix, How about you just keep your koombaya "sit together in a big kava circle" BS fake friendliness to yourself. Clearly you find every opportunity possible to question and attack me, as you did in this post. You're not fooling anyone.

As I said, the better of us are now posting COAs to be more transparent, and that's exactly what it accomplishes. It's about transparency and helping customers make informed decisions. It has nothing to do with the quality of my products previously.

As for your thinly veiled insinuation that I'm falsely advertising by keeping the name for 11 Year Waka the same, despite it no longer consisting entirely of 11 year old roots, I made it clear long ago that we couldn't guarantee the age. It also says it in bright red print on the product page that we don't guarantee it. I'm sure that every time Chris says a kava is three years old, it's not exactly 1,095 days old at harvest. That must be false advertising, I guess. And news flash 1,000 year old eggs aren't 1,000 years old.

It's cute that you always take it upon yourself to protect Chris, despite clear lies and outlandish claims. You're also great at sucking up to the ever professional and qualified G@rry Stoner. I know you're upset that he was exposed, but I don't know why you have such an obsession with me. Find a new hobby. Your nastiness and hypocrisy is greater than most. You really want this shit to pass? You may want to look inward.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Lol you just like running in circles... if you honestly think someone can maintain an herbal business through craigslist ads then you are clearly not thinking for yourself.

Nah man. Thinking for yourself is questioning statements that don't make sense or looking for scientific data to verify claims or to determine the right products to buy. I never suggested that the whole business was based off of craigslist, it was just one concern. The going around in circles always happens when GS enters the debate. It's a tactic that he is very good at and either frustrates his opponent into giving up or results in a messy, chaotic thread that's sure to get closed.

It's not like he was making claims about his products, such as calling a product "7yr Mahakea" when in fact he'd already harvested all his 7yr old kava and was now selling 4yr old Mahakea under the same label. No, that would be illegal, unethical, shifty, and perhaps even grounds for a ban from the forums? (Exaggerating here to expose the hypocrisy)

This is getting ridiculous. Even with my concerns about GHK, I never suggested he should be banned. Product names are much different than claims.

 

[kasa_balavu]

@kasa_balavu AKA Garry remix, How about you just keep your koombaya "sit together in a big kava circle" BS fake friendliness to yourself.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I suppose it looks like bs when you don't know me personally and all you have to go by is what I've posted on this forum.

Clearly you find every opportunity possible to question and attack me, as you did in this post.

I feel you're exaggerating there, unless you consider questions an attack.

I suppose my annoyance with you is partly because of your support of some people I consider assholes (I suppose you dislike me for the same reason) who have no interest in kava beyond its ability to make them a quick buck, but also partly because of your repeated attempts at tearing down TK which I sincerely believe to be a great initiative that was making a real and lasting impact on kava quality in the US.

And then AKA tried to get the Vanuatu govt to relax its restrictions on tudei kava. That was really upsetting. In any case, I asked you about it here:

@Bula Kava House Are you still an AKA board member? Are you backing this move by the AKA to push for Vanuatu to amend the Kava Act to relax the restrictions on tudei kava?

You ignored my question. When I saw that you were around and responding to others, I tried again:

Thanks for joining this discussion, Judd.
The AKA made a submission to the Vanuatu kava meeting which contained significant claims about the breadth of the US industry that the AKA represents. As the only AKA board member active on KF, would you be kind enough to produce a list of members? Were the members asked whether they should make this submission to the Vanuatu govt, or was this a unilateral decision by Blythe?...

Of course you ignored me again. I reckon the questions were both fair and needed to be asked, because the potential impact of what the AKA was doing on all of us was huge. Of course I was frustrated that you ignored me.

Then just yesterday after you accused GS of defaming people, I asked you to list the incidents you're talking about. Truth is an absolute defense to defamation, and I don't recall GS knowingly making false statements on here, hence the question (a fair one, I though, since he isn't here to defend himself). Once again you completely ignored me. Instead of complaining that I ask too many questions, why not just answer them?

As for your thinly veiled insinuation that I'm falsely advertising by keeping the name for 11 Year Waka the same, despite it no longer consisting entirely of 11 year old roots, I made it clear a long ago that we couldn't guarantee the age. It also says it in bright red print on the product page that we don't guarantee it.

Read the link I provided. It's still potentially false advertising and against the law... and that's after you started mentioning in the smaller print that the product name is misleading. In any case, KF doesn't really care or make a big deal out of it. Everyone, like you, appears to be fine with it. The reason I bring it up is that you called GS out for breaking the law and being unethical in a very similar situation. In his case, it's definitely not illegal to register an American Kava Association org.. every US state can have an AKA, and any one of them can register a domain name for their org. Whether it's unethical depends on intent, which thus far we've all assumed is devious (just as I assumed your misleading product name is devious). Perhaps if he's ever unbanned from here he might be able to defend himself just as you've defended your choice to call 8yr old kava 11yr kava. BTW the farmer can tell you exactly how old any batch of kava he sends you is. There's really no need to be ambiguous.

I'm sure that every time Chris says a kava is three years old, it's not exactly 1,095 days old at harvest. That must be false advertising, I guess. And news flash 1,000 year old eggs aren't 1,000 years old.

We assign value to kava based on its age. In fact many consider this one of the most important factors when evaluating kava. You know this, which is why you made a point of giving your kava that name when you started selling it. If Chris sold a kava named 6yr old kava and then did a bait and switch, selling 3yr old kava under the same label, that would absolutely be false advertising... which is exactly my point! 1000yr old eggs have never been 1000yrs old. If they had initially been 1000yrs old but continued to be sold as 1000yr old eggs after the seller ran out of them, that would be deceptive.

It's cute that you always take it upon yourself to protect Chris, despite clear lies and outlandish claims.

Yes, I acknowledge that I've been biased where it comes to Chris. I think it's because I love the fact that he's a farmer growing his own kava, that he shares his knowledge freely, that he embraces traditional knowledge and farming practices, and because it's apparent he's not just in it for the money but actually cares about kava and the long-term health of the industry. I have not been convinced by everything he's said, and been disappointed by some of his claims, but I weigh that against the good he's done.

You're also great at sucking up to the ever professional and qualified G@rry Stoner. I know you're upset that he was exposed

I truly appreciate everything he's done for this industry. He's been thrown under the bus because he fucked up, but his good work will have a lasting impact. I'm very upset that his errors in judgement (I assume that he had something to do with KL) have damaged TK, but I'm confident that people who've seen the positive impact that such an org has made in improving the quality of kava in the US, will see the benefit of such an org.

You really want this shit to pass? You may want to look inward.

That's a good point. I've tried before to stay out of KF drama, but I keep coming back when I see stuff happening that either affects the industry negatively, or when I see what I think are decent (if flawed) people being railroaded. Thanks for the advice, honestly. Despite the delivery, I'm taking that to heart. This will be my last post on the current KF drama, and I'll try and avoid these controversial topics in future.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I suppose it looks like bs when you don't know me personally and all you have to go by is what I've posted on this forum.


I feel you're exaggerating there, unless you consider questions an attack.

I suppose my annoyance with you is partly because of your support of some people I consider assholes (I suppose you dislike me for the same reason) who have no interest in kava beyond its ability to make them a quick buck, but also partly because of your repeated attempts at tearing down TK which I sincerely believe to be a great initiative that was making a real and lasting impact on kava quality in the US.

And then AKA tried to get the Vanuatu govt to relax its restrictions on tudei kava. That was really upsetting. In any case, I asked you about it here:


You ignored my question. When I saw that you were around and responding to others, I tried again:


Of course you ignored me again. I reckon the questions were both fair and needed to be asked, because the potential impact of what the AKA was doing on all of us was huge. Of course I was frustrated that you ignored me.


Read the link I provided. It's still potentially false advertising and against the law... and that's after you started mentioning in the smaller print that the product name is misleading. In any case, KF doesn't really care or make a big deal out of it. Everyone, like you, appears to be fine with it. The reason I bring it up is that you called GS out for breaking the law and being unethical in a very similar situation. In his case, it's definitely not illegal to register an American Kava Association org.. every US state can have an AKA, and any one of them can register a domain name for their org. Whether it's unethical depends on intent, which thus far we've all assumed is devious (just as I assumed your misleading product name is devious). Perhaps if he's ever unbanned from here he might be able to defend himself just as you've defended your choice to call 8yr old kava 11yr kava. BTW the farmer can tell you exactly how old any batch of kava he sends you is. There's really no need to be ambiguous.


We assign value to kava based on its age. In fact many consider this one of the most important factors when evaluating kava. You know this, which is why you made a point of giving your kava that name when you started selling it. If Chris sold a kava named 6yr old kava and then did a bait and switch, selling 3yr old kava under the same label, that would absolutely be false advertising... which is exactly my point! 1000yr old eggs have never been 1000yrs old. If they had initially been 1000yrs old but continued to be sold as 1000yr old eggs after the seller ran out of them, that would be deceptive.




Yes, I acknowledge that I've been biased where it comes to Chris. I think it's because I love the fact that he's a farmer growing his own kava, that he shares his knowledge freely, that he embraces traditional knowledge and farming practices, and because it's apparent he's not just in it for the money but actually cares about kava and the long-term health of the industry. I have not been convinced by everything he's said, and been disappointed by some of his claims, but I weigh that against the good he's done.



I truly appreciate everything he's done for this industry. He's been thrown under the bus because he fucked up, but his good work will have a lasting impact. I'm very upset that his errors in judgement (I assume that he had something to do with KL) have damaged TK, but I'm confident that people who've seen the positive impact that such an org has made in improving the quality of kava in the US, will see the benefit of such an org.



That's a good point. I've tried before to stay out of KF drama, but I keep coming back when I see stuff happening that either affects the industry negatively, or when I see what I think are decent (if flawed) people being railroaded. Thanks for the advice, honestly. Despite the delivery, I'm taking that to heart. This will be my last post on the current KF drama, and I'll try and avoid these controversial topics in future.

All I want to say is thank you, @kasa_balavu, have an excellent grasp of things. I think that many many people that do not post (and that do) really appreciate your input and what you have to say. Aloha nui loa.

Chris

 

[Bula Kava House]

@kasa_balavu I ignore your questions because they're only asked in an effort to make me look bad.

As for who I support, you're obviously talking about Tyler. Yet you've never spoken with Tyler. You don't know him at all. If you did, you would know he cares about kava more than most anybody in the industry. He's passionate about plants that can help people, and keeping kava legal and available. You don't agree with his stance on tudei or K@, but that is an opinion and should not be used to attack his character, and especially not to troll me.

Your comments on 11 Year being unethical are ridiculous, so I'll just ignore that here too. Truth is, if you applied half the amount of skepticism to GHK that you do to me or ROH, they'd be on your "Z" vendor ranking on reddit.

Glad to hear that you'll step away from the drama.

*Edit: I'd like to add that buying links that someone might logically use to find a known organization and forwarding them somewhere completely different is against the law, and is obviously completely unethical. I can't buy truekavas.com or consumerreport.com and have my website or even a non-profit's site as the landing page. It's fraud.

 

[kastom_lif]

I don't understand how taking pictures of a kava field becomes an equivalent to disclosing gps coordinates.

The terrain on the BI is pretty distinctive. Any kind of picture that shows a view into the distance, and people are gonna go all CSI and have the place pinpointed. That's not fair to the landowners, whoever they might be.

 

[tonythefiddler]

You've gotta be kidding me, who cares what the name is. It's noble and potent. I like GHK better usually but 11 year is what i recommend to most new kava consumers, I don't think GHK had actual 20% kavalactone kava either but I don't care. I just buy what works and as long as they aren't claiming it to be noble while it's actually tudei, they can call it whatever they want. 1000% lactone 50 year waka. Stupid to argue about names when people are selling garbage tudei masquerading as noble.