Kava FAQ Why does kava just not really work sometimes? Also, can you develop tolerance to specific strains?

[BourbonMac]

I didn't think you could develop any tolerance at all, really. I mean I experienced what I thought was tolerance last winter with micronized when suddenly it stopped working, I'd taken 22g one night feeling very little, then 10g the next night and felt incredible, more like I'd done my 15g dose which usually would hit me with such euphoria.

With medium grind I find it's always been more consistent than micronized, but tonight I had 40g of Vanuatu and barely feel a thing. I think this is the first time I've actually never felt anything from this strain, it's so strong. Even earlier this week when I messed up straining it and really only got like, 20g of it, I felt really great, so I'm shocked I don't feel much. I've mostly taken Lewena lately and not Vanuatu. I've had one other time medium grind didn't work for me, but of all the times I've used it, it's never failed me since. I never experienced "reverse tolerance" or anything like that either.

I mostly ask about strain tolerance because I saw some posts on reddit talking about people not feeling much from the same dose if it's used repeatedly but if kava truly has no real tolerance this shouldn't be true. And plus I haven't been using this one as much lately. I had been doing a 50/50 mix of them.

I'm assuming the hit or miss nature is simply just how kava goes, though. I wonder if it'll randomly hit me harder after I eat in a little bit, I have noticed this before but on top of already existing effects.

 

[The Kap'n]

I'm assuming the hit or miss nature is simply just how kava goes, though.

Ding ding ding. This is the answer.

No joke, man, I've been drinking kava for the better part of 2 decades and each day is a different experience. Same bag, same prep, and some days even the same food. Still totally different.

Kava is just something you have to roll with, as it will rarely ever be the same twice in a row.

 

[Edward]

 

[Krunked up Tong]

I know people complain about it being fickle a lot, but I get the effects everytime, providing i've left it long enough after eating. I guess I'm lucky maybe?

 

[BourbonMac]

So have I except for these 2 occasions, at least with medium grind. I mean it may not have been at potent feeling some other times but this straight up did absolutely nothing. The first time that happened it was just a bad vendor afaik

 

[mlenny]

I didn't think you could develop any tolerance at all, really. I mean I experienced what I thought was tolerance last winter with micronized when suddenly it stopped working, I'd taken 22g one night feeling very little, then 10g the next night and felt incredible, more like I'd done my 15g dose which usually would hit me with such euphoria.

With medium grind I find it's always been more consistent than micronized, but tonight I had 40g of Vanuatu and barely feel a thing. I think this is the first time I've actually never felt anything from this strain, it's so strong. Even earlier this week when I messed up straining it and really only got like, 20g of it, I felt really great, so I'm shocked I don't feel much. I've mostly taken Lewena lately and not Vanuatu. I've had one other time medium grind didn't work for me, but of all the times I've used it, it's never failed me since. I never experienced "reverse tolerance" or anything like that either.

I mostly ask about strain tolerance because I saw some posts on reddit talking about people not feeling much from the same dose if it's used repeatedly but if kava truly has no real tolerance this shouldn't be true. And plus I haven't been using this one as much lately. I had been doing a 50/50 mix of them.

I'm assuming the hit or miss nature is simply just how kava goes, though. I wonder if it'll randomly hit me harder after I eat in a little bit, I have noticed this before but on top of already existing effects.

I am no expert on the subject, but as somebody with neuroscience and pharmacology degrees, it's very unlikely that no form of tolerance ever develops. Everything seeks homeostasis, which is disturbed by kava, so the body makes adaptive changes to compensate.

Matthew

 

[BourbonMac]

Yeah I also like to think kava forms tolerance but so many people have told me it's impossible to build a tolerance to. I made a reddit post once and was dogpiled for even mentioning the possibility of tolerance. Everyone denies it, yet they'll go on about this "reverse tolerance" which I personally don't think is a real thing. I've had a lot of friends of mine try kava and it worked for them the first time every time.

So I do agree that you can build a tolerance. Maybe not much, but in my experience you can. The last 2 times I've used kava I didn't feel much on doses that would have me normally stumbling.

Oh and off topic, does anyone have an estimate for how many mg of kavalactones would be in say 40g of medium grind? I'm traveling soon and didn't intend to bring my kava, I might but I don't think I will. I got this tincture today which I believe is a noble brand? Nature's answer kava-6, 100mg of kavalactones per serving. I don't think it's an extract, I mean it smells exactly like kava. Gaia Herbs I know is a noble brand and their tinctures had alcohol and were disgusting, but this one is thick, chunky, gooey and smells exactly like kava (alcohol free of course). I might bring this but it was really just an experiment. The Gaia Herbs tincture was potent but I'd have to drink half the bottle to feel good, which was maybe 500ish mg of kavalactones.

 

[JohnMichael]

Purely anecdotal: kava was definitely "reverse tolerance" for both my wife and me, dramatically so for her. More amazingly, no tolerance has developed so far...after more than a decade of imbibing. As a math major with classes in statistics, far be it from me to confuse personal experience with genuine statistical analysis, but that's my experience.

 

[KavaTasteGood]

I think there's a difference between a certain tolerance and a disruption of a system's homeostasis leading to withdrawal. For example, administering a megadose of tyrosine sublingually, an amino acid that serves as a precursor to dopamine, had a pleasant effect on me the first day (like the typical effect of a low stimulant dose: improved mood, increased libido), then nothing noticeable. Can I go into withdrawal taking x grams of tyrosine? No. In the same way, kava cannot disrupt the system to the point of causing withdrawal after overconsumption. This is certainly due to the efficacy and potency of the effects of kavalactones (directly streaming from there way they bind to there proteins target thank to their physicochemical proprieties). I suppose the respective systems are never completely blocked, no matter how much kavalactone is present. But it is always possible to develop tolerance to a partial agonist. Bear in mind that even a new exciting situation or new music loses its ability to make you secrete dopamine quite quickly.

I'm not sure where our subjective effects seem to diminish for some people and recover after a break (that's my case) and where they don't seem to vary for others. I suspect that internal state is also an important factor in appreciating the experience. A certain contrast (hard working day then relaxation), some sport (endorphines, endocannabinoid secretion increase...), seem to me to be factors that potentiate the effect.

 

[JohnMichael]

I think there's a difference between a certain tolerance and a disruption of a system's homeostasis leading to withdrawal. For example, administering a megadose of tyrosine sublingually, an amino acid that serves as a precursor to dopamine, had a pleasant effect on me the first day (like the typical effect of a low stimulant dose: improved mood, increased libido), then nothing noticeable. Can I go into withdrawal taking x grams of tyrosine? No. In the same way, kava cannot disrupt the system to the point of causing withdrawal after overconsumption. This is certainly due to the efficacy and potency of the effects of kavalactones (directly streaming from there way they bind to there proteins target thank to their physicochemical proprieties). I suppose the respective systems are never completely blocked, no matter how much kavalactone is present. But it is always possible to develop tolerance to a partial agonist. Bear in mind that even a new exciting situation or new music loses its ability to make you secrete dopamine quite quickly.

I'm not sure where our subjective effects seem to diminish for some people and recover after a break (that's my case) and where they don't seem to vary for others. I suspect that internal state is also an important factor in appreciating the experience. A certain contrast (hard working day then relaxation), some sport (endorphines, endocannabinoid secretion increase...), seem to me to be factors that potentiate the effect.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this. Very insightful.

 

[BourbonMac]

I definitely seem to have developed some kind of tolerance. I never had the reverse tolerance phenomenon, when I came back to it after 4 months it hit me so damn hard I almost felt like I was on MDMA from 15g of micronized. Lately, no amount of kava is really doing much. I'll get a bit dizzy and such but 40g has always been my magic dose that gets me feeling real good.

When I made this thread I'd assumed it was just a fluke, but kava hasn't worked for me the last 3 or 4 times I did it and I've used it regularly since I don't know, early last month? Interestingly I started getting dermopathy symptoms ONLY from one particular strain: Old Roots, whatever that is. I prefer my Vanuatu and Lewena, but those have done nothing for me lately whether I knead it or use the Aluball. I haven't tried micronized lately, strained it loses so much potency it's basically not even worth it. Unstrained is a lot heavier than medium grind in terms of the intoxication but still, it has a dirty feeling to it. Maybe drinking straight up muddy sludge is part of that lol

 

[Groggy]

Yeah I also like to think kava forms tolerance but so many people have told me it's impossible to build a tolerance to

I think it would be more accurate to say the body is a complex organism, we have a tendency to adapt to external stimuli that makes us feel good to the extent that it could be perceived having lost "effect" when the body possibly just assimilated the feeling in the daily routine of the organism.

I feel it every time but I treat kava ritualistically, it is always a mindful decision and something I put time aside for myself, to enjoy those specific moments. I find the more in tune or present, in that moment I am with myself, the better the experience.

 

[BourbonMac]

I had been feeling it every time but suddenly the effect was much less. I haven't taken any in awhile, probably will wait a week and see what happens.
A possible issue is that my Aluball was sometimes damp and I think this made the kava inside dry or something. I did notice the kava was dry when I went to clean it out before but then I realized maybe I'm using too much water.

 

[TrevC]

I had been feeling it every time but suddenly the effect was much less. I haven't taken any in awhile, probably will wait a week and see what happens.
A possible issue is that my Aluball was sometimes damp and I think this made the kava inside dry or something. I did notice the kava was dry when I went to clean it out before but then I realized maybe I'm using too much water.

Oh man, I've run into this - the Aluball has to be completely dry, or the fibers you initially add to the Aluball stick to the wet metal mesh, forming an instant blockage.
I started noticing after shaking one up one time that the water was WAAAY lighter "mud" colored than normal. Opened up the Aluballs and yep - dry "root balls" rolling around on the inside.

 

[Atticus]

Ding ding ding. This is the answer.

No joke, man, I've been drinking kava for the better part of 2 decades and each day is a different experience. Same bag, same prep, and some days even the same food. Still totally different.

Kava is just something you have to roll with, as it will rarely ever be the same twice in a row.

You nailed it! It has taken me years to finally accept this and to just let it lead while we are dancing.

 

[ThePiper]

This is the nature of all substance's. You will get “some” effect no matter what assuming you can absorb it, but the effects on the mind will be subjective due to the transience of our conscious perception of our internal state, our sense of novelty, expectation, and the variability of neurochemistry day to day or even moment to moment.

 

[fueledbykava]

Anecdotally of course, I feel as though my experience with it is somewhat predictably linear in that my tolerance increases the more often that I take it, but is otherwise consistent in terms of effect when I take it at equally spaced days apart per week on a non-food-containing stomach (not having eaten since the day before when I begin to take the Kava).

 

[KavaTasteGood]

Wikipedia: "Potentiation of GABAA receptor activity may underlie the anxiolytic effects of kava, while elevation of dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens likely underlie the moderately psychotropic effects the plant can produce. Changes in the activity of 5-HT neurons could explain the sleep-inducing action[41] However, failure of the GABAA receptor inhibitor flumazenil to reverse the anxiolytic effects of kava in mice suggests that benzodiazepine-like effects are not contributing to the pharmacological profile of kava extracts.[42]

Also I definitely think you can have tolerance to on part of the effects spectrum, for example on this elevation of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, but not tolerance on other pharmacological effects (GABA potentiation?).

 

[The Kap'n]

Wikipedia: "Potentiation of GABAA receptor activity may underlie the anxiolytic effects of kava, while elevation of dopamine levels in the nucleus accumbens likely underlie the moderately psychotropic effects the plant can produce. Changes in the activity of 5-HT neurons could explain the sleep-inducing action[41] However, failure of the GABAA receptor inhibitor flumazenil to reverse the anxiolytic effects of kava in mice suggests that benzodiazepine-like effects are not contributing to the pharmacological profile of kava extracts.[42]

Also I definitely think you can have tolerance to on part of the effects spectrum, for example on this elevation of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, but not tolerance on other pharmacological effects (GABA potentiation?).

Those pesky concentration levels. I swear research related to kava sits somewhere in space between Mars and the Moon with regard to the concentration levels that most of these studies required to elicit a response. It required 300µM to even begin to elicit a GABA response (Chua et al. 2016). My sincere suspicion is that the main mechanism of action is through voltage-gated sodium channels, which would explain the lack of tolerance and withdrawal effects, among others.

 

[Krunked up Tong]

Isit possible that some parts of the root are just lower in kavalactones? Maybe when it doesn't work properly it's just down to being unlucky and you've used root from the bag that's lower in kavalactones. Probably not but just a thought.