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Noble Vs Tudei Kava - Megathread

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
Just to make a point: I have long been a fan of N&H Kavas. But one issue they have is consistency. The first time I drank Wow! Kava I became extraordinarily sick. But every bag I've had since then - sans one - has been stellar. So when I looked at the acetonic tests I surprised to see that Wow! has tested both Tudei and Noble at different times. So when someone looks at the list now, and sees that it is classified as "Noble," they might get a Tudei. What kind of pressure could be put on the vendor to ensure nobility? I'm not sure.
The whole point of testing is to show consistency in the product. Take noble/tudei out of the equation. If you buy ranch dressing, but get bleu cheese every so often, you won't be happy. I send each batch of kava I get to @Deleted User so that he can validate the kava that I get. I ensure that my product remains consistent, so you don't get the problem you've seen with N@H.

Is testing for consistency a good thing?
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
The whole point of testing is to show consistency in the product. Take noble/tudei out of the equation. If you buy ranch dressing, but get bleu cheese every so often, you won't be happy. I send each batch of kava I get to @Deleted User so that he can validate the kava that I get. I ensure that my product remains consistent, so you don't get the problem you've seen with N@H.

Is testing for consistency a good thing?
What a sane reasonable concept.
 

Kalm with Kava

Kava Vendor
I would only agree with the first point. But even then only partially. If vendors took an interest in organizing cooperatives, they could ensure more consistency within a batch.

My main point is that it is enough for a vendor to label their Kava and then let the consumers decide what they like. If a vendor is selling crap, people won't drink it. And attempting to test Kavas based on name alone (example: Nakamal at Home "Wow" is or isn't Noble) probably won't create useful information because we haven't yet created the logistics to ensure consistency.

I'm fine with the testing - people can do whatever they want. What I am not fine with is a hegemonic discourse where the entire community just gets behind something that is still in its early stages and may or may not be relevant.
I have refrained from posting on this topic too much because it has gotten so heated, personal, and off topic many times. There is great information and discussion here if we can all (both sides) let tempers subside and have a good discussion. (I'm not pointing any of this directly at you Kavasseur, you have been cordial. It seems like everyone has lost their cool at one point through this thread. I just wanted to respond to your post)

Honestly I believe this is what TrueKava was meant to be. Not a regulatory agency for kava but a resource to shed light on the current situation and foster discussion and ideas. The testing began as a way to determine why there was so much variation in kava from each vendor and even in specific products.

This is exactly what got vendors like myself traveling to Vanuatu and Fiji, to see first hand what was going on and what could be done better, setting up local sources of supply rather than going through the 3 big wholesalers.

The farmers know exactly what's in their fields and the difference by sight between Noble and Tudei without having to test it. Even most of the wholesalers know the difference by sight (if they buy green) but they're not interested. This discussion is creating the pressure for them to differentiate and provide better consistency.

The problem of not having any database of testing is people want to know what they're drinking without having to get burned by a product. There's many times a specific branded kava will be all over the map in chemotype and results. That's what TK set out to do is provide consistency by measuring one main variable that differentiates kava types from one another. I disagree that this information isn't valuable because it provides me at least with an idea of whether I'm going to feel like getting out of bed or not the next day. This is the consistency factor. When before a kava may range from 100% Noble to 50% Tudei depending on the batch, TK is trying to ensure a group of products that will always be Noble. Any Vendor can have their kava test results posted on the site if it consistently tests Noble.

I also still believe there may be uses for tudei kava but it can't be the wild west if we want kava to gain mainstream acceptance. There has to be some sort of quality control and while others have talked about providing this, Garry has been the one to step up and actually do what he and many scientists believe set effects apart from one another.

I think if we all have a cordial discussion on this we can even further the knowledge and nuances of kava only making it better for everyone as a whole.
 
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TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
A few observations about the South Pacific kava producers and consumers:

1. I don't know why @Kavasseur keeps telling us that he had some tudei kava with the Solomon Islanders. Is this meant to prove that traditional kava drinkers do not mind tudei? I am surprised that you are not aware of the fact that kava is likely not more "traditional" in the Solomon Islands than it is in Florida. As @Deleted User once noted, LEbot writes in his book that "According to Whitmore (1966), no proven specimen of P. methysticum has been found in the Solomon Islands, and today kava is consumed nowhere in the archipelago...".

2. As I noted earlier, it is recognized by Vanuatu kava dealers, that farmers sell stuff they themselves would not drink. It is a known reality in Vanuatu and tells us quite a lot about how "traditional" the kava exported from Vanuatu is. The truth is that spiked kava is indeed a "Western invention". But not in the sense that the problem is "made up" by a bunch of Westerners, but simply because traditional drinkers and farmers do not spike their kava. Yes, in many cases they simply control the production, but hey - now thanks to @Deleted User we don't have to physically supervise harvesting to detect crap, so we can finally drink the traditional (i.e. not Western!) type of kava!

3. Many islanders living in places like New Zealand drink spiked and shitty kava not because they don't care, but because they try to be polite. If you come to a Fijian kava circle in Auckland, you will notice that various people bring kava from different sources. It is considered extremely impolite to question the quality of these "kava contributions". It is the cultural equivalent of inviting someone for a birthday party and then conducting loud research to find out how expensive the gift from him/her is and commenting whether he or she is cheap. The thing is that while this Fijian politeness made sense on the islands where virtually "all kava was kava", it doesn't make that much sense anymore (and this fact is recognized by quite a few of my Fijian friends, but you know - it's culture!). Still, the islanders living in Auckland CAN tell the difference between shitty and good kava and certainly prefer the latter. They just don't want to be rude and are OK with drinking whatever is brought to the circle, even when they know that some of these kavas will give them two-day hangovers! (yes, even they know about tudei!). Thank God we are not bound by these cultural conventions... Ah, wait, @Kavasseur thinks he should be.

4. In NZ the most ant-kava islanders come from either non-kava drinking islands (e.g. the Cook Islands) or from various religious circles (Mormons, Adventists). In their "advocacy" work and publications they love examples of "two day hangovers" and things of that sort because such anecdotes confirm their general anti-kava message. It is very convenient for them that drinking unlabelled kava is the equivalent of a "Pacific roulette", this reinforces the message that kava is an unpredictable product. Our best defense against such people (who are quite vocal here) is not to argue that even spiked kava can be nice, but to push for coming back to using traditional (i.e. not spiked) kava.
 
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Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I can't respond to all of these points at once, so I'll be brief.

First, thank you Kalm with Kava for bringing some civility into the conversation. Even though you claim that I have been cordial, I recognize that my temper has flared up a few times (at least internally) during this conversation. I also appreciate your call for a critical approach. That is really all I have been advocating for. That and possibly the need to get clear information about the consistency of batches, the effects of Kava versus the test results, and the actual health risks of drinking Tudei. As I've said before, I've been sick after drinking a "Noble" Kava and fine after drinking a "Tudei." So there might be crucial variables that we haven't even considered yet.

I don't know what to say about Henry's post. It appears it is some kind of attack on authenticity. I don't feel the need to defend myself and my experiences. That being said, all of my research into ethnobotany and ethnology in the Solomon Islands points to a rich Kava culture that subsided somewhat with the arrival of evangelical Christianity but has become recently popular again. There are at least two nakamals in Honiara, one of which I visited.

That being said, I don't see any desire to pick apart your analysis of New Zealand Kava customs. That all sounds interesting and compelling.

Bula,

Douglas
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
@Kavasseur - You know, I'm tired of mincing words and I'm going to put it in simple terms. We've got six vendors, several exporters, and a rather large group of kava consumers who are very happy with the network that has developed here. We also have the support of the experts and the kava producing nations, and we all enjoy our kava very much. It meets our needs, and our method of selecting that kava works just fine for us. Every single one of these people are participating of their own free will, yet you personally think we need to just "quit it" because you don't agree with what we are doing. That's not going to happen, so I suggest you continue to select your kava your way, and recognize that others also have that choice.
Garry
Let me also be very clear here.

My problem is not that you are testing Kava and advocating for what you believe is "true" Kava. My issue is that you are trying to institutionalize your method of testing. The unintended (or intended) consequences of your ideological push range from putting certain vendors out of business, to completely marginalizing Pacific Island nation Kavas, to creating an inaccessible clique that will further push Kava into the periphery of natural medicine.

Furthermore, there has been no proof that your system of testing guarantees good health, positive experiences, or reliability.

That's it.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Sorry, popped out for a curry and a few beers with my flatmate, he's got the night off work so we took the opportunity...

I don't think anyone actually read what I wrote.
I think we all read it but probably disagreed with it.

Right, because nothing has proved to be more efficient than the free market.
I'm sensing sarcasm? Of course the free market works, see the quote below...

The farmers know exactly what's in their fields and the difference by sight between Noble and Tudei without having to test it. Even most of the wholesalers know the difference by sight but they're not interested. This discussion is creating the pressure for them to differentiate and provide better consistency.

The problem of not having any database of testing is people want to know what they're drinking without having to get burned by a product. There's many times a specific branded kava will be all over the map in chemotype and results. That's what TK set out to do is provide consistency by measuring one main variable that differentiates kava types from one another. I disagree that this information isn't valuable because it provides me at least with an idea of whether I'm going to feel like getting out of bed or not the next day. This is the consistency factor. When before a kava may range from 100% Noble to 50% Tudei depending on the batch, TK is trying to ensure a group of products that will always be Noble. Any Vendor can have their kava test results posted on the site if it consistently tests Noble.

I also still believe there may be uses for tudei kava but it can't be the wild west if we want kava to gain mainstream acceptance. There has to be some sort of quality control and while others have talked about providing this, Garry has been the one to step up and actually do what he and many scientists believe set effects apart from one another.
Several points in the above lead to the inevitable... if the vast majority of consumers want only noble kava and the tests exist to weed out the tudei then the tudei spikers will die a death.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I think you are tying together completely irrelevant statements.

And yes, I was being sarcastic about the free market. Just look at how great the free market has worked for a sustainable planet. The free market gets externalities all wrong.

As for Kalm with Kava's statement, I am not going to criticize it because I'm sure it is completely accurate. However, I'm not sure that a random test here and there is going to have an impact on farmers' behavior.
 

Kalm with Kava

Kava Vendor
This is the beauty though. It is having an impact. The last time I was in Port Vila they had a meeting with all of the major suppliers that were able to attend. The purpose of this meeting was specifically to encourage wholesalers to talk to their farmers they buy from, encourage them to quit mixing the kavas, and better educate on washing techniques so the kava doesn't have to be washed and dried multiple times killing kavalactone content.

I have personally spoken with one of the biggest kava suppliers in the world who told me with no hesitation that they do far too much volume to have time to sort the Tudei from the Noble.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I think you are tying together completely irrelevant statements.

And yes, I was being sarcastic about the free market. Just look at how great the free market has worked for a sustainable planet. The free market gets externalities all wrong.

As for Kalm with Kava's statement, I am not going to criticize it because I'm sure it is completely accurate. However, I'm not sure that a random test here and there is going to have an impact on farmers' behavior.
I didn't think they were irrelevant, they all tied together... except for the bit about the beer and curry.

The free market doesn't look after the planet, it is what it is. I have no intention of starting up a mud pie factory anytime soon, chiefly because there is no market for mud pies. As the market for tudei kava dwindles and the opportunity to pass off tudei as noble in order to "fill a shipment" dwindles then the less and less tudei will be grown and the less this will be an issue. A random test here and there won't make a difference straight away but consistent testing will help to push the farmers to realise that the majority of the market is for noble kava and so they will only grow that. If not then they may as well start making mud pies alongside their unsellable kava.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I didn't think they were irrelevant, they all tied together... except for the bit about the beer and curry.

The free market doesn't look after the planet, it is what it is. I have no intention of starting up a mud pie factory anytime soon, chiefly because there is no market for mud pies. As the market for tudei kava dwindles and the opportunity to pass off tudei as noble in order to "fill a shipment" dwindles then the less and less tudei will be grown and the less this will be an issue. A random test here and there won't make a difference straight away but consistent testing will help to push the farmers to realise that the majority of the market is for noble kava and so they will only grow that. If not then they may as well start making mud pies alongside their unsellable kava.
How old are you? I'm only asking because as you get older, you realize that nothing works the way (behavioral) economists believe. There was even a mathematician who claimed that the global economy was harder to protect than global weather - months out.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
I trade forex so I know all about unpredictability. The way to profit from it is to ride the waves, find a method that works despite the fact that the market appears random. It's something that took me a long time. How this relates to kava I'm not sure.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
Doug is obviously refering to the idea of the Tragedy of the Commons, i.e. situations where the fact that everyone acts in his or her self-interest means net losses for the whole community. The formula for this tragedy is that people seek to privatize the benefits and socialize the costs, which is theoretically (and practically) possible and obvious in spaces that we could label as "unmanaged commons" (the atmosphere, the world's oceans, etc). Yet, this is not an argument against free market, but against unamanaged commons. To the classical liberals, a free market was not free of regulations, but was free of privilege. In any case, that externalities reference was of limited relevance to our discussions on tudei as it is obvious that customer demand determines the quality of the kava that gets produced and exported. So far, most consumers do not mind buying shit because they either don't know/are unable to tell the difference or, because of cultural reasons, they don't mind drinking crap. Thanks to @Deleted User's efforts we will hopefully see fewer people of the former type.

And regarding the Solomon Islands: @Kavasseur - are you suggesting that Lebot's information was innacurate? Do you have any evidence that kava has been continuously widely and traditionally consumed in the Solomon Islands (and not just introduced there in the 1980s)? The fact that Honiara has two nakamals doesn't say much about how traditional their consumption patterns are. After all, Florida has 10 kava bars and New Caledonia (and obviously new kava market) has tens of little nakamals.
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
I trade forex so I know all about unpredictability. The way to profit from it is to ride the waves, find a method that works despite the fact that the market appears random. It's something that took me a long time. How this relates to kava I'm not sure.
Isn't forex currency trading? If so, the relationship is obvious. The import/export prices for kava constantly change with the value of the dollar. Currently the vantu is 0.0089 US Dollars. And with your manipulation of the vantu by driving up demand from the huge block trades you are making, it is affecting the price of my kava dammit. :)
(p.s. just trying to be helpful here :)) ::happyshell::
 
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Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
You mean the amount of kava I am buying recently is increasing demand pushing the price higher? That could be more like it...
 

HeadHodge

Bula To Eternity
You mean the amount of kava I am buying recently is increasing demand pushing the price higher? That could be more like it...
Go with that, that's good too. Just remember the time you go to bed at night is related to everything else somehow via the butterfly effect. :)
 
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