Why didn't tudei just disappear without any testing?

[SelfBiasResistor]

No grandpa to help, but have been going back through old posts to understand in more depth how the Noble only movement started, progressed, and now by and large is the dominant opinion on KF. I wonder how much of it was driven by kava users, like yourself, deciding they didn't like it and becoming more educated on the differences versus some suppliers pushing the idea. It seems to me that tudei would be self regulating product. If lots of users got sick and had bad experiences it wouldn't continue to be a profitable venture to sell it, yet it seems to be the opposite.

This is exactly what I've not liked about the noble only movement (can't call it pro noble since they want every product not sold by their group of vendors eradicated from the market). If consumers were always repulsed by "low quality tudei", the vendors selling it wouldn't make money. I don't know how often noble had tudei added to boost effects but again, if tudei was lower quality and had more side effects, that would be an unwise business practice because it would make those kava products less desirable to the consumer. Consumers wouldn't need a group of vendors to tell what is enjoyable and what causes unwanted side effects.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

@Zaphod, point taken. But don't miss the big picture. If Vanuatu wants to sell to Europe again, they need to put their best foot forward and that means no Tudei. The FDA has left us alone for now because we are showing them that we are also self-policing, no tudei. The FDA goes by the literature written by scientists like Lebot and Schmidt, not by what we post here. No tudei. I have no problems with people like yourself buying and drinking Tudei in the privacy of your home. I don't want to see Tudei drinkers leaving kava bars looking like they are drunk. Especially underage people. There is already a distraught mother in Florida that claims that the K@ he drank at a Florida Kava bar made him commit suicide. My heart goes out to her but now they are applying pressure on that kava bar and he can longer accept credit cards to boot. You know his name right? He got gunned down at the meeting in Vanuatu.
In my view, people who do Tudei and K@ are better off consuming that than the other things they would normally consume. But we need to keep it on the down low. And yes, I liked getting stoned on Tudei until I didn't.

The FDA isn't keeping kava legal because of industry self regulation to avoid or limit sales of non noble kava. That's a ridiculous claim.

If I'm not mistaken that Florida boy was also a heroin addict.

 

[Deleted User01]

I believe the FDA is satisfied that the industry is self regulating. I have no proof. But go ahead and stir the hornets nest and we will soon find out. As for the unfortunate young man, I said the mother "claimed" it was the K@. I didn't say I believed it. But everyone on the city council in that Florida city does believe it and they punished that Kava Bar owner and it was BAD PRESS for our side. Just like many educated people still believe that kava ruins the liver. Please do not believe that Kava is mainstream. It is anything but that. There is no Kava craze and nobody approves of it but our little group. It's not fair that everyone approves of drinking alcohol yet Kava is till looked upon as a dangerous botanical. But dem is the facts. Hey, I understand you have an analytical mind but nobody uses logic when they pass judgment on kava.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I wonder how much of it was driven by kava users, like yourself, deciding they didn't like it and becoming more educated on the differences versus some suppliers pushing the idea.

1. Going noble-only is costly and a PITA for vendors.
2. There are non-noble cultivars that are hardier, grow faster, and yield more than noble cultivars.

Let's assume for a moment that kava was not at risk of being banned. Not in USA, not in Europe, not anywhere. It was as free as potatoes, and guaranteed to be free forever. Under that assumption, I'd love to hear your reasoning for why vendors might want to push noble-only.

It seems to me that tudei would be self regulating product.

Go to a time and place where the profit-motive didn't rule and you'll find that non-noble cultivars were pushed to the fringe by the very people who gave us kava and who knew more about it than anyone else.

If lots of users got sick and had bad experiences it wouldn't continue to be a profitable venture to sell it, yet it seems to be the opposite.

If we didn't have trigger-happy governments just waiting to pounce at the first sign of a miss-step, that would be a very good way to handle it. Let the free market decide what kava it wants. Unfortunately we don't have that luxury, and we can't risk having high reports of illness anywhere. The US govt might be more lenient than others, but we already know that governments look beyond their own borders for bad news.

 

[Deleted User01]

For the life of me, I don't understand why Tudei is being defended. And especially since regular kava is still banned in many countries. Is this just more of the ongoing vendetta against True Kava and the TK vendors? Me thinketh something stinketh. So I'm otta here. I'm going to reserve the right to post sparingly in the future but my give-a-shitter is totally worn out. Time for another lesson like the one learned in the 90s. You guys in the islands won't have to worry about a kava shortage when this finishes playing out and the guys pushing Tudei and K@ will end up bankrupt or selling some other "botanical". Later.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

This is all getting a bit crazy. It seems some people refuse to remember how it all started and what drove the creation of True Kava. Instead, they prefer conspiracy theories and fantastical claims. One person has even recently suggested that Deleted User "spearheaded efforts to ban kava in Germany"! WTF? I wonder what is next?

Anyway, the truthis that TK and Garry did not fight against labelled tudei products. Garry wasnt testing kavaby rex's tudei to tell people it was tudei.what happened was that a few years ago many "noble"kavas contained tudei or even wichmanii. I personally got seriously ill after consuming what turned iut to be wild kava (or super nasty tudei) labelled as noble. Some people just had enough of getting inconsistent effects. consumers wanted to be able to trust the labels. Garry donated his time and money towards the mission of finding out how to tell if a given product was what it said it was. Furthermore, he and others have also promoted the idea that noble kava offers the best effects for most users and has the lowest risk of causing side effects.

I guess what went wrong was that at some point everyone wanted to become noble certfied or get their kava tested and Garry was physically unable to process all the samples and all the applications from vendors. This made a few people extremely resentful. They combined forces with those who wanted to continue to sell tudei and together they ve been attacking Garry and everyone who has ever dared to express support for the idea if testing or to be pro noble. Fast forward to this day and we hear that Garry banned kava in Germany, that Garry is a colonialist ruining Vanuatu, a mobster destroying well meaning kava vendors etc. In the meantime the truth is that Garry's efforts have been influential and popular because most consumers really do want to know what they are buying and most people actualky want to avoid tudei.

The simple truth is that if TK didnt exist, it would have to be invented.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Great post, @Deleted User.
I for one appreciate everything you've done for the industry.

The only people who haven't benefited from your efforts are half a handful of botanical importers and exporters. Every US kava drinker, whether or not he/she agrees tudei kava should be readily available to noobs, has benefited from the greater focus on kava quality by *all* kava vendors since TK came into being.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

It's strange continually hearing from the same group that quality has never been better when the consumer experience says different. If quality was better than in the past, I wouldn't be mixing wakacon with supreme again tonight (ran out of Nangol and don't want to spend almost $100/pound on another high quality product). We are a couple of years into the big noble only push and prices have skyrocketed while quality has dropped in the US market. Europeans no longer have free access to kava. I'm sorry if I fail to see where the winning is taking place.

I understand the "libertarian" viewpoint where "it's my body and I'll do what I want", but I personally see this as an idealistic, isolationist, and rather immature viewpoint. There's a big picture here, and if you're really in favor of the continuance of the kava industry you must realize there are others involved, and there are concessions that have to be made.

IMO it's foolish at this point to believe US legality is going to hinge on noble vs non noble. The worst thing we can do right now is push the idea that any kava is dangerous. I've seen user posts on other forums warning that buying anything but noble will result in liver damage. If any kava is seen as dangerous, it puts all kava at risk.

 

[kasa_balavu]

It's strange continually hearing from the same group that quality has never been better when the consumer experience says different.

You can't on the one hand discard an opinion because it comes from "the same group" while on the other hand consider something to be fact because it comes from a "group" of one... yourself. In any case, it appears that your only measure of quality is potency. It's well known that the kava shortage has resulted in plants being harvested as young as 18 months old. That may be the cause of the potency issue you face. In any case we still see 4 and 5-star reviews being posted on here, so clearly your experience isn't widely shared.

We are a couple of years into the big noble only push and prices have skyrocketed while quality has dropped in the US market.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation
See above for the likely explanation. Prices have dropped all over the world.

I'm sorry if I fail to see where the winning is taking place.

As far as I can tell from the shared experiences of others on here, "this kava made me sick" was much more common before True Kava came into being. That's a win.

IMO it's foolish at this point to believe US legality is going to hinge on noble vs non noble.

The problem with this perspective is that it's selfishly US-centric. The leading expert on kava in Europe and the man arguably most responsible for the lifting of the European kava ban says that adverse event reports will be used to ban kava, and they don't have to occur in Germany for them to be used.

The worst thing we can do right now is push the idea that any kava is dangerous. I've seen user posts on other forums warning that buying anything but noble will result in liver damage.

I agree. When you see them, correct them. Tell them that while non-noble kava has no history of safe long-term recreational use, it appears to be safe and the only concern should be its higher propensity to cause unpleasant side-effects. Tell them to avoid it until they have lots of experience with noble kava and know what to expect from it. Tell them to buy from a reputable vendor who properly labels his kava.

The less people drinking non-noble kava unwittingly, the better. They need to know the facts beforehand so that when they get sick, they don't report that "kava made me sick" but "<non-noble cultivar> made me sick as I was aware it might based on 3000 years of traditional knowledge".

If any kava is seen as dangerous, it puts all kava at risk.

Ideally, all kava in the US would be noble, in which case none of this would even be an issue.
In any case, what the random guy on the street thinks isn't all that important. What's very important is that the FDA is aware of the issues around kava quality so that when they see more reports of people getting sick from kava, they attribute it to quality issues (non-noble, hepatoxic aerial parts, microbac issues, etc) and not to Kava.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I wasn't suggesting that the quality and price issues were a result of TK's actions, I was pointing out that there is definitely more work to do when it comes to getting the quality of many vendors products up.

What's very important is that the FDA is aware of the issues around kava quality so that when they see more reports of people getting sick from kava, they attribute it to quality issues (non-noble, hepatoxic aerial parts, microbac issues, etc) and not to Kava.

It's not realistic to assume that the FDA will differentiate between noble or tudei, they will recognize it as piper methysticum, kavalactones, FK's, etc. Aerial parts adverse effects may be excluded but they could very well take action for any problems that come from consumption of the roots of any variety of the plant. Some vendors are taking the logical step of routinely testing for more than just nobility (while providing those results to their customers) and it would be a good idea if TK would follow their lead and provide batch to batch test results, testing for more than just nobility.

 

[kasa_balavu]

It's not realistic to assume that the FDA will differentiate between noble or tudei, they will recognize it as piper methysticum, kavalactones, FK's, etc.

The Food Safety and Inspection Service of the USDA is working with the kava growing nations on a Kava standard for the Codex Alimentarius. Only cultivars that have a long history of safe use as a recreational beverage will be considered. See here for details.

Some vendors are taking the logical step of routinely testing for more than just nobility (while providing those results to their customers) and it would be a good idea if TK would follow their lead and provide batch to batch test results, testing for more than just nobility.

TK is not a vendor, but they do test for more than just nobility.

 

[Zaphod]

Yikes! Wow, I didn't mean to start a noble vs. tudei war again. I think we have done that quite enough on here. I should clarify that I am all for noble kava, strong testing programs, and proper labeling. I agree with many points and positions of the noble only movement and believe it is important to keep the FDA on our side and to get kava recognized as GRAS in the US. If noble only gets us to that point, great.

In addition, as a relatively new user of kava (~2.5 years) the movement started by testing and pushing noble only kava means I have never had tudei kava (mixed or not) without my knowledge and for that I thank you. My experiences with kava have all been positive (except for my own overdoing it on moi microgrind ). While I don't rule out trying a tudei in the future I will at least go into it with eyes wide open (and possibly stomach...). Truth be told I have some labeled tudei on its way to my house, but this was more to try my hand at some acetone tests than for consumption.

All that being said it is important to understand both sides of an argument, and that was the reason I was sifting through old posts. I wasn't looking for any conspiracy theories...I got enough of those to last a lifetime in this current political environment thank you very much.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

Yikes! Wow, I didn't mean to start a noble vs. tudei war again.

You didn't. Anytime there are questions or concerns about the noble only movement, the same group will blow it up into a bigger issue than it needs to be. Merely asking a question gets you labelled pro tudei, etc. There is no tolerance for competing products or consumers who may benefit from them. It's a close minded group with an agenda that will be pushed at any cost.

The Food Safety and Inspection Service of the USDA is working with the kava growing nations on a Kava standard for the Codex Alimentarius. Only cultivars that have a long history of safe use as a recreational beverage will be considered. See here for details.

I've pointed out why much more needs to be done than this. In kava we have a product that is already commonly marketed for purposes of increased health effects, medicinal use and addiction support. The FDA will not allow that even if they do recognize it as a beverage. If pharmaceutical companies and the addiction industry lose money, they will pressure the regulators to do something about it. If large numbers of people try switching to kava to escape from opiod addiction, for example, the FDA has made it clear that it will clamp down. Additionally, the FDA isn't the only hurdle. If kava is banned in Seminole city or any other cities, counties or states, it will not matter what the FDA stance is. It's clear this has not been thought through and that potentially puts ALL kava at risk.

TK is not a vendor, but they do test for more than just nobility.

TK is not a vendor but it is very closely tied to it's vendors. TK always runs to the rescue of any vendor (usually the same one) that it sees being questioned, etc. TK has no standards for its vendors other than pushing the noble only agenda and has proven unwilling to punish or in any way condemn bad behavior by it's vendors or members. Realistically TK has the support of only a handful of small vendors and I can see why other vendors have no desire to have TK stickers on their bags.

As far as testing, TK only means noble. That was made clear when I requested testing and COA information and was met with hostility and made clear that "TK certified noble" means just that, noble. When I look at a TK sticker, I don't see batch to batch testing or batch IDs. Most TK vendors show little or no proof of any testing and are falling behind the other vendors who are willing to share this information.

 

[kasa_balavu]

If kava is banned in Seminole city or any other cities, counties or states, it will not matter what the FDA stance is. It's clear this has not been thought through and that potentially puts ALL kava at risk.

If kava is banned in Seminole City, nothing really changes for the industry. People from there can still get kava. So they might not get a kava bar for a while, but that'll change. People get voted in and out. Local government is by definition, local and easily influenced by residents of that city. We can't risk having another national kava ban in any western nation just to avoid potential bans by small-minded people in small cities where barely anyone drinks kava. The only focus should be on regulatory authorties. We know what their stance on kava currently is. We know that they watch for. We know what triggers reports. We know that certain types of kava are more likely than others to trigger those reports.

are falling behind the other vendors who are willing to share this information.

The vendors who share this info only just started doing so. Just like many vendors took a while to post nobility, it will take a while for some vendors to report other quality data. Ideally, all vendors would be testing for everything and reporting everything. Competition will push the industry to sell higher quality kava, and we'll all be better for it.

You didn't. Anytime there are questions or concerns about the noble only movement, the same group answers your questions and concerns. Merely asking a question gets your question answered. There is no tolerance for consumers who want to push non-noble kava to everyone just because they are lucky enough to not be negatively affected by its side-effects. It's a focused group with with the goal of protecting the kava industry worldwide at any cost for the benefit of kava farmers in the Pacific Islands and kava lovers the world over.

FTFY

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

You clearly have no knowledge of past events. Five years ago consumers were baffled by the inconsistency of effects that kava gave them. When the true content of that kava was revealed and genuine choice in product selection became an option, effects became consistent and kava gained popularity. Constant testing was (and still is) necessary.

People knew about tudei, isa and noble 5 years ago. Some liked kava with tudei/isa, most preferred noble. Some vendors had low quality products, same as today but most people felt they got their moneys worth and only the lowest quality of vendors commonly sold inadequate strength kava (think KKF). Kava has been rapidly gaining popularity for years and the noble only movement can't be credited with this. I've seen many more people give up on kava because of lack of effects, not for overpowering effects. I nearly gave up on it myself before I found a certain blogger and the old forum and realized that KKFs weak products weren't giving me real kava effects. I was very excited the first time I made a purchase from Paradise and got strong effects. Today that experience cannot be repeated without spending a significant amount of money, unless the drinker happens to be a super light weight or a micro-doser.

In light of these facts, your theory that "Consumers wouldn't need a group of vendors to tell what is enjoyable and what causes unwanted side effects." is simply WRONG. There are still plenty of vendors today who, for whatever reason, continue to sell kava that is adulterated with tudei to lesser and greater degrees, and consumers continue to buy this kava, especially those who - like you - buy based on lowest cost.

As usual, your assumption is wrong. My purchases aren't based on cost since I need to get real effects. If I could get by with the cheapest products available, I wouldn't be complaining about cost. When I run out, I'm forced to use a low quality filler to mix with a strong product that I can get on Amazon...

The fact that people continue to buy tudei adulterated kava tells me that it's not going to bring upon the downfall of the industry.

The irony of it all is the simple fact that 99% of those involved in the "noble movement" have nothing to gain monetarily or otherwise by such a conspiracy, and that 100% of those perpetrating these lies have extensive monetary involvement. Yes, there are vendors on the "noble" side - but it doesn't take a degree in economics to realize that these vendors have a significantly lower profit margin than those who buy any kava they can, claim whatever they want about it, and sell indiscriminately while whining all the while.

As a consumer sitting on the sidelines, the landscape looks different. I see a group of vendors and a pharmaceutical scientist not only engaging in public awareness but also into politics in efforts to have only their products sold. The pharmaceutical industry now has a monopoly on kava sales in Europe. Politicians are being lobbied to financially harm competitors.

I talk to potential new kava vendors on a regular basis, and the most often asked question by far is "Where can I buy noble kava?". They name specific exporters whom they've communicated with, and in a large majority of these cases those exporters themselves have publicly stated that they cannot guarantee 100% noble kava. If they do have an exporter that has guaranteed to ship only 100% noble, I encourage them to ask questions of other vendors, to do some research, and to obtain samples and test them. The net result is almost universal failure of the exporter to meet their own claims.

An interesting case in point is a prominent exporter who claims his kava will never exceed 10% tudei, and that this is simply unavoidable. While his claim of <10% may be technically true, what he fails to mention is the process by which he packs. One would think from his claim that each and every bag would never be over 10%, but in fact the percentage given is an average across the entirety of his operation. Thus, rather than delivering a shipment of, for instance, 10 bags that each have <10% tudei, he in fact delivers 10 bags, 9 of which are noble and the 10th is pure tudei. This is not conjecture, this is fact based on extensive experience.

That's some interesting information, thanks. The large exporters will always be the biggest problem when it comes to quality since they are so much more detached from the user experience and are driven only by profits. One of the points I've been trying to make is that a legality strategy needs to take into account the bad players also. It won't matter if non noble, contaminated or spiked kava products are reserved to a back shelf in a head shop or an undesirable "kava bar", it will still be out there and the more underground it is pushed, the more likely it is to cause a problem for all kava drinkers at some point.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

If kava is banned in Seminole City, nothing really changes for the industry. People from there can still get kava. So they might not get a kava bar for a while, but that'll change. People get voted in and out. Local government is by definition, local and easily influenced by residents of that city. We can't risk having another national kava ban in any western nation just to avoid potential bans by small-minded people in small cities where barely anyone drinks kava. The only focus should be on regulatory authorties. We know what their stance on kava currently is. We know that they watch for. We know what triggers reports. We know that certain types of kava are more likely than others to trigger those reports.

Again, focusing only on the regulatory authorities is a very flawed strategy. The FDA adverse effect reports aren't likely to be the biggest challenge in the long run. While a kava ban in the city of Seminole, FL wouldn't be a big deal in the grand scheme of things, if it does go through, it can start a domino effect where more uninformed city counsels will attempt to ban and eventually escalate to counties or state bills. This type of thing has a copycat effect when dealing with a plant that the general public and politicians know very little about -- especially being a psychoactive substance with well known recreational usage. Many of the attempted bans on K@ were based on it being a "synthetic" or "designer drug" with the people pushing them not even realizing it was actually a plant.

Something else that I find of concern is that Yangonin, while extremely weak, is a CB1 agonist. That effect could be greatly exaggerated by a group wanting to restrict or remove kava from the market.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I see a group of vendors and a pharmaceutical scientist not only engaging in public awareness but also into politics in efforts to have only their products sold.

Wait, what? Please explain this. Nobody has a monopoly on noble kava. Everyone can grow noble kava. Everyone who trades in kava can buy noble kava. Everyone who sells kava can sell noble kava. Noble kava isn't owned by "a group of vendors". Noble kava isn't owned by "a pharmaceutical scientist". I mean, what you're claiming seems like something straight out of THE WEB'S ONLY RELIABLE, UNBIASED, TRUSTWORTHY SOURCE FOR KAVA REVIEWS AND NEWS.

The pharmaceutical industry now has a monopoly on kava sales in Europe.

Do you mean Germany? Kava wasn't legal there in the first place. Extracted kavalactones were legal until the early 2000's. Then it was banned for a decade and a half until the good work of Dr. Matthais Schmidt, the Vanuatu Amabassador to the EU Roy Mickey Joy, and countless others. Your attempt at painting this as a bad thing is bewildering.

Politicians are being lobbied to financially harm competitors.

The only lobbying done that I know of was by millionaire Peter Colmar, possibly the largest tudei grower in the world, and his trading partner Tyler Blythe. While their efforts were driven by personal greed, I'd disagree with your assertion that they intended to harm their competitors. They just wanted to be able to profit off their tudei kava, and the long-term risk to the industry be damned.