Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Yes, I've heard about this exact issue. Thanks for bringing that up, Squanch!
A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy
- Thread starter Kojo Douglas
- Start date
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
That is my worry, I hear the he is really busy so don't expect your sample to be returned. Well then how is someone saying there root was tested as I am sure they restock. Do they get their root tested or do they go to other labs. Is it only for certain vendors. Now I have mad love for the big guys, but that does worry me some for the new guys. But if I can't send a sample in for free or low cost sampling and get it returned then what do I and other new vendors do?
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
Did you hear this from more then one vendor, not getting their samples returned?
verticity
I'm interested in things
It is true that testing is expensive, but selling untested kava is not illegal. Vendors are free to sell kava whether they test it or not. And consumers are free to do the acetone test without the help of any lab. I don't think anyone has been "pushed out" because of that. Maybe some inexperienced people think they need testing, and have not gotten into the business for that reason. The majority of Fijian kava, as far as I know, is sold through Fijian businesses, Fijian groceries, etc, in the US and New Zealand, and is not tested before sale. Case in point:
http://bestfijikava.com/ is still in business, selling what most acknowledge is noble kava, although they do not have a formal testing program that I know of. And, yes, obviously small vendors, like yourself, are at a disadvantage selling to people who care about testing (i.e. us) because of the expense of testing. @Deleted User I think understands that: that's why he provides free testing. Unfortunately, with free things, the Tragedy of the Commons applies here, and @Deleted User is only one guy, so his turnaround time is pretty slow. I would note that for that same $500 one can also purchase a spectrophotometer to perform rigorous acetone testing oneself. The spectra could be published by vendors, the same way some publish COAs. Of course they could be faked, just like COAs can be faked, but that's where consumers doing their own testing and verification comes in..
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
Yeah you end up right back to doing it yourself if you know how to properly use the equipment. Yeah nothing illegal about selling without testing. But most people look for that. Not a perfect system for sure. I do hope that what you say is the truth about backed up and not just an inner circle thing. Admittedly I do worry about that being the case. But hopefully those worries are for no reason and that isn't the case. I think it is easy for new vendors to think that though. Some guys get their samples done and others don't does make one think something may be fishy. I appreciate the respectable nature of this discussion on a side note.
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Palmetto
Thank God!
Tudei might be healthier for cancer patients not currently on chemo to drink, precisely because of the higher flavokawain levels acting as a better antitumor agent than doxorubicin and adriamycin (common chemo agents) in head to head trials, yet with lower toxicity to healthier tissues than either. Lebot found tudeis to have average FK;KL ratios of 0.39, whereas nobles averaged 0.09. Another paper found almost no ill effect to the liver of mice from tudei and no effect from noble. Those effects became pronounced when tylenol was given to the mice. I think we shouldn't say that kava drinking is always completely safe no matter what, since some people are taking drugs on a regular basis that cross react. BUT if you aren't taking any medications that cause cross reactions, even tudei drinking is relatively safe. I hope the nuance I'm trying to get at isn't taken the wrong way.
Flavokawains a and B in kava, not dihydromethysticin, potentiate acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity in C57BL/6 mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4203398/pdf/tx5003194.pdf
So if the absurd argument of legalizing marijuana in some states for everyone because of certain medical cases, then tudei should be available for people concerned about cancer that will take it responsibly. But I think tudei's side effects are much less than marijuana, so really anyone could take it, if they were responsible.
Flavokawains a and B in kava, not dihydromethysticin, potentiate acetaminophen-induced hepatotoxicity in C57BL/6 mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4203398/pdf/tx5003194.pdf
So if the absurd argument of legalizing marijuana in some states for everyone because of certain medical cases, then tudei should be available for people concerned about cancer that will take it responsibly. But I think tudei's side effects are much less than marijuana, so really anyone could take it, if they were responsible.
verticity
I'm interested in things
I actually don't think most kava consumers look for test results. Many of us on Kava Forums do, but we are far from a majority of kava consumers. Even without a spectrophotometer, you could still publish a photo of test results, side-by-side with Isa and known Noble samples, with controlled lighting, correct ratios of root to solvent, etc., of course, to demonstrate the noble-ness of your kava... The COAs provided by the Vanuatu Ministry of Trade simply note if the test looks "yellow" or "orange"--they do not do a very rigorous version of the test..
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
Yes, I have heard from multiple vendors that True Kava is slow or not responsive. They seem to have agreements or relationships with certain vendors.
verticity
I'm interested in things
Yeah, and let me add: I don't think there is sufficient evidence to say that tudei is actually dangerous to your liver or any other organ; my objection to it is based on it's unpleasant effects for most people. In a perfect world, all kava would be accurately labeled noble, tudei, or blend, and consumers could decide for themselves what to buy based on the label. However, the kava exporting countries themselves have come to the conclusion that tudei is giving all of kava a bad name, and harming their export market.
This is not true, I live in Hawaii and I talk with a lot of people that drink kava and I talk to all the kava bars over here. Very few people over here like Isa, most do not, I say again MOST do not because it makes them sick, even more so that say what you experienced with the Hanakapi Ai. The only reason some kava bars sell Isa is because there are not enough people growing Hawaiian kava and Hawaiian Kava is hard to get so they are stuck with Isa. Isa is NOT a sought after kava by many over here in Hawaii, it is only by a small minority.
I did many interviews before I wrote my talk that I gave at the 2015 kavacon and it was clear that over 90% wanted Noble Hawaiian kava and not the Isa.
I also have to wonder why you yourself have jumped on and off this boat so many times. I thought you said you don't want anymore tudei, you said it in your video for all to see, I don't understand the bouncing back and forth.
Chris
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
I guess another thing I wonder about is what countries actually grow tudei. I guess any country could spike with tudei but does Fiji and Tonga even grow tudei. Is that new vendor from Fiji who just sells Fijian having to go though unnecessary hoops because of the Vanuatu supply chain? I just feel bad for the new guys I guess.
This is also is not true. I might be considered the one that is best suited to get a sample tested by Deleted User and in a timely fashion but I can not. I have been waiting for months to get some test results back. The reason he has not gotten to them is because he is busy with a lot of other things that are going on in his life and he has been working closely with kava experts to get kava on the codex and then we would have a good chance to get the FDA to change there view on kava. I am not going into detail on the things that Deleted User is going through, it is not my place but he has gone through a lot that would make it hard for him to do any testing at this point in time.
I really do not see the point for this discussion, your just opening a can of rotten worms that I thought was closed for good by all of us, including you according to your own words. Aloha.
Chris
They do not grow tudei kava but Fiji does import a large amount of tudei and makas from Vanuatu and I have proof of this. This is where the problem comes when it comes to getting some Fijian kava.
Aloha.
Chris
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
I appreciate that top part about Deleted User and hope he is doing well.
For the bottom part I think if we can't stay civil and provide information than we shouldn't post. I had some of the same concerns he had and glad it was brought to light and made me feel better. I don't think is the evil Noble/Tudei post of past. I think we all respect each other here even more so than before.
verticity
I'm interested in things
For any newcomers here wondering what this is all about, please see the Noble/Tudei Megathread:
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/noble-vs-tudei-kava-megathread.6208/
Caveat: It gets a bit ugly at points.
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/noble-vs-tudei-kava-megathread.6208/
Caveat: It gets a bit ugly at points.
For the bottom part, it is the truth, and I am being civil. I guess I am just passionate about kava and the way it has been for hundreds of years. I want it to stay that way, it is the best way. More people will come to kava and stay with kava if it were all Noble like it used to be. Aloha.
Chris
verticity
I'm interested in things
A brief history of the beginnings of the shitstorm:
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/koniak-history-a-refresher-course.2922/
http://kavaforums.com/forum/threads/koniak-history-a-refresher-course.2922/
Squanch72
Kava Vendor
Just wanted to keep it Kava chill. No offense intended.
No offense taken. Like I said I am just very passionate about Noble kava. I remember when I could buy kava from Vanuatu and never had to worry about getting tudei kava, and the Fijian kava was just outstanding, those were the good old days. Not to say Fiji or Vanuatu does not still have great kava but you do have to admit good kava is something you have to look for now days, you have to make sure that there is no tudei or other things added to the kava. This is my passion. Aloha.
Chris
GussWest
Kava Enthusiast
Aloha nui loa, Chris. You (and others in this convo) are definitely keeping things above board civil. I absolutely appreciate your insightful and informed messages here!
It seems there are many of us scientific types here, do you think it would be possible for Deleted User to pass the baton, so to speak, on this testing methods? More than one of us has access to the necessary research equipment to make this happen. His work is important, seems a shame that it has fallen all on his shoulders. Is there a protocol published for the testing required?
It seems there are many of us scientific types here, do you think it would be possible for Deleted User to pass the baton, so to speak, on this testing methods? More than one of us has access to the necessary research equipment to make this happen. His work is important, seems a shame that it has fallen all on his shoulders. Is there a protocol published for the testing required?