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A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

verticity

I'm interested in things
Aloha nui loa, Chris. You (and others in this convo) are definitely keeping things above board civil. I absolutely appreciate your insightful and informed messages here!

It seems there are many of us scientific types here, do you think it would be possible for Deleted User to pass the baton, so to speak, on this testing methods? More than one of us has access to the necessary research equipment to make this happen. His work is important, seems a shame that it has fallen all on his shoulders. Is there a protocol published for the testing required?
If you are seriously interested, I can provide you (and anyone else) with the software used to determine dominant wavelength from the visible spectrum. The protocol is attached. That's the most recent version I have; I don't know if it has been updated.
 

Attachments

Squanch72

Kava Vendor
I would love to see those color coded test cards become a reality so that anyone could use them. That might help with controlling lighting. And would be so simple to check results.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
Aloha nui loa, Chris. You (and others in this convo) are definitely keeping things above board civil. I absolutely appreciate your insightful and informed messages here!

It seems there are many of us scientific types here, do you think it would be possible for Deleted User to pass the baton, so to speak, on this testing methods? More than one of us has access to the necessary research equipment to make this happen. His work is important, seems a shame that it has fallen all on his shoulders. Is there a protocol published for the testing required?
Yes there is a standard in place for this testing, both the HPLC and the colormetric testing and I am sure that if there were someone who wanted to help Deleted User or just plain do what he is doing it would be great and very possible, it is a good idea, thanks for coming up with that idea. Let me know if you have any questions about this or how to get started. Aloha.

Chris
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
The video I made was more of a joke about Donald Trump than an opinion on Tudei.

But yes, I have jumped on and off the bus. I just see a lot of fall out from friction along these fault lines. I wish we could get clarity on the real "dangers" of Tudei and wonder if sometimes we are just beating up a straw man with nothing but negative consequences for some vendors.
 

Gourmet Hawaiian Kava

Kava Expert
Kava Vendor
The video I made was more of a joke about Donald Trump than an opinion on Tudei.

But yes, I have jumped on and off the bus. I just see a feel a fall out from a lot of these fault lines moving. I wish we could get clarity on the real "dangers" of Tudei and wonder if sometimes we are just beating up a straw man with nothing but negative consequences for some vendors.
I understand what your saying but for me it has not been as much about if this is bad for you or good for you it has always been about what the original kava growers did, they selected Noble kava for drinking, not tudei. Tudei was reserved for ceremony and medicinal purposes. The original kava growers did all of this for us hundreds of years ago. They knew that the Noble kava was better, plain and simple. Aloha.

Chris
 

Palmetto

Thank God!
I have an acquaintance that moved to Brazil because he thought it would help his palm tree export business. After 3 frustrating years of trying to get the locals to conform to European quality standards, he gave up and moved back to Britain. Certain cultures are not accustomed to doing things in an organized fashion, and it takes quite a while to instill the importance of this to them. From what I understand, Vanuatu, PNG, and Fiji are so laid back that specific details about whether a kava is tudei or not only matters if it will prevent someone from buying it to you and you immediately see the difference. So it will take considerable effort for kava from those countries to eliminate spiking. On the other hand, Hawaiian kava is so noble and the culture more accustomed to orderliness, selling noble when you claim noble is easier to achieve.
 

Kojo Douglas

The Kavasseur
I have an acquaintance that moved to Brazil because he thought it would help his palm tree export business. After 3 frustrating years of trying to get the locals to conform to European quality standards, he gave up and moved back to Britain. Certain cultures are not accustomed to doing things in an organized fashion, and it takes quite a while to instill the importance of this to them. From what I understand, Vanuatu, PNG, and Fiji are so laid back that specific details about whether a kava is tudei or not only matters if it will prevent someone from buying it to you and you immediately see the difference. So it will take considerable effort for kava from those countries to eliminate spiking. On the other hand, Hawaiian kava is so noble and the culture more accustomed to orderliness, selling noble when you claim noble is easier to achieve.
I think this is a realyl good, and pertinent point. As an agriculturalist and market chain guy, I can attest to the difficulties in maintaining consistency when you are working with other farmers. Particularly with a crop that is so valuable, it would be a nightmare to actually regulate every pound of Kava that is being shipped from Melanesia.
 

verticity

I'm interested in things
I have an acquaintance that moved to Brazil because he thought it would help his palm tree export business. After 3 frustrating years of trying to get the locals to conform to European quality standards, he gave up and moved back to Britain. Certain cultures are not accustomed to doing things in an organized fashion, and it takes quite a while to instill the importance of this to them. From what I understand, Vanuatu, PNG, and Fiji are so laid back that specific details about whether a kava is tudei or not only matters if it will prevent someone from buying it to you and you immediately see the difference. So it will take considerable effort for kava from those countries to eliminate spiking. On the other hand, Hawaiian kava is so noble and the culture more accustomed to orderliness, selling noble when you claim noble is easier to achieve.
The thing is noble kava is not a European standard. The term 'noble' was invented in Vanuatu, and the growers and kava drinkers there are well aware of the difference. It's not like some foreign standard is being imposed on them. If consumers demand noble, I'm sure the kava growers can give us noble kava. The problem is kava takes 5 years to mature, so there is still a lot of tudei that was planted (at the request of Chinese pharmaceutical companies) growing that they understandably want to unload, so the situation can't change immediately. But if the sellers in Vanuatu understand that buyers can detect adulteration, and will pay a premium for verified pure noble kava, I am confident they can make it happen, although, like I said, it will take some time.
 

Sam Handwich

Kava Enthusiast
I for one am happy to see this discussion come to a head. I was a lurker on this forum when there was some truly great discussion about the merits of noble kava and the scientific testing of the safety of kava. It seems I joined up just in time for the collapse of these discussions and have since whiteness the loss of the participation of several vendors, Deleted User and recently even our Kapm. What is happening around here? Is this really all because one person really likes the effects he gets from Tudei? I for one am still silently and secretly sceptical about the safety of all kava because I have always believed in the "there's no free lunch" theory and kava seems to be too good to be true. For this reason I truly am thankful for the scientific research that has been done on the safety of kava consumption and know that we need more. Is Tudei safe? I don't know but I do know that good research has been done to prove that noble is. I don't think that ANY plant should be illegal, but all should be clearly labeled so that the consumer can make a well informed decision. I have had some great experiences with noble kava and have no desire to see what Tudei does, it's just not necessary and could unnecessarily endanger all kava. I would really like to see the return of some of our core members and vendors and the return of the eloquent and progressive discussions that used to exist here.
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
This is a quote from the KWK website, main page;

We at Kalm with Kava strive to provide only Noble and well tested varieties of Kava. There is much debate on the issue and until further research can be established it somewhat comes down to personal preference. With that said, this is our stance...

As @Kavasseur had mentioned I have had tudei like effects from Hanakapi'Ai as well as Nangol Noble, using the same amounts I use with any other kavas. This is not an attack on any vendor. I think it is a matter of personal choice, we are all well informed on this website about the differences. I have also drank Tudei, with the knowledge that it was tudei. Similar effects and the same amount was used across the board. I believe it is a matter of choice, given the proper labeling.
I don't know enough about the vendors that dropped out of KF to form an opinion as to why it exactly happened.
Overall I prefer a noble kava, the effects are cleaner without the next day hangover, however certain kavas that are labeled as noble have given me similar effects to tudei kavas.
 

sɥɐʞɐs

Avg. Dosage: 8 Tbsp. (58g)
Review Maestro
This is a quote from the KWK website, main page;

We at Kalm with Kava strive to provide only Noble and well tested varieties of Kava. There is much debate on the issue and until further research can be established it somewhat comes down to personal preference. With that said, this is our stance...

As @Kavasseur had mentioned I have had tudei like effects from Hanakapi'Ai as well as Nangol Noble, using the same amounts I use with any other kavas. This is not an attack on any vendor. I think it is a matter of personal choice, we are all well informed on this website about the differences. I have also drank Tudei, with the knowledge that it was tudei. Similar effects and the same amount was used across the board. I believe it is a matter of choice, given the proper labeling.
I don't know enough about the vendors that dropped out of KF to form an opinion as to why it exactly happened.
Overall I prefer a noble kava, the effects are cleaner without the next day hangover, however certain kavas that are labeled as noble have given me similar effects to tudei kavas.
You bring up a point that I think some people confuse about the issue and it's related to why I always suggest finding higher DHM noble/medicinal kavas if you think you want Tudei. The confusion is in the term or experience of "Tudei-like effects". People seem to think that if they have experienced Tudei like effects from a noble kava, then it must mean your body has been affected equally as such. As far as we know, this should not be the presumption.

Since Tudei apologists typically value their personal opinion over that of the leading scientist and pharmaceutical chemists in the field, I will only propose this next part as a hypothetical:

Let's just say, hypothetically, that FK-B has definitively been proven to be harmful if consumed regularly via apoptosis and/or whatever other mechanism. Since tudei kava has several times the concentration of FK-B than noble kava, it would stand to reason that tudei kava could be several times more harmful. Now, as you and I have personally experienced, we've both consumed tudei kava and also consumed some noble kava that we've considered to have an equivalent effect as tudei. So if the same effect can and has been achieved with certain noble kavas, why would one insist on the ingestion of tudei to get the same psychoactive effects, in this scenario where we know the buzz is the same in either choice but the damage is increased in only one.

Back to reality, what I'm trying to say is, the perceived psychoactive effects aren't necessarily an indicator that equally benign or malignant metabolic processes are at work inside you.
 
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TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
The tudei vs noble story didn't begin with @Deleted User , True Kava or this forum. It really came to surface in the early 2000s when the kava market collapsed and when kava's reputation was nearly totally destroyed in Europe. Various scientisits, government officials and others started investigating the reasons why a plant with such a long history of safe use could suddenly be responsible for numerous adverse reactions and even death. It's been 15 years since that happened and we have a fairly substantial body of literature (both peer-reviewed papers and government reports) that confirm the safety of using noble kava roots in a traditional way. But from the very beginning it was clear that not all kava products exported to Europe, America etc were "noble kava roots prepared in a traditional way", so it was seen as quite likely that the new forms/types of kava had to be more closely investigated. It was quickly discovered that some of the kava exports contained leaves, stems, peelings, perhaps even mould and other impurities. In Vanuatu it was also noted that much of the exports contained the "undrinkable" kava varieties (this is the actual terms used before the whole tudei-vs noble debate!). For most people it was fairly obvious that the exports of such products constituted a qualitative revolution and that traditional perception of kava safety could not possibly apply to products that are vastly different to those that are traditionally consumed.

In NZ back in 2002-2004 the government commissioned a big report on kava safety and concluded that traditional kava roots are safe, but there are big questions about organic extracts, leaves, stems, etc. Consequently, NZ adopted its famous "kava food standard" which makes it illegal to sell (albeit not posses) non-aqueous kava extracts, peelings, stems, leaves etc for human consumption. Only peeled roots and water extractions made from them can legally be sold here. Already back then it was noted by both government officials AND numerous submissions from various members of the public, representatives of Pacific governments and researchers (and I can assure you that @Deleted User wasn't one of them) that it would also be very desirable to differentiate between what, they described back then as "drinkable" and "undrinkable" kava varieties. But the government concluded that back then (in 2004) there was no scientifically established way of distinguishing one from the other and decided that most traditional users posses the appropriate experience and knowledge to detect non-drinkable varieties in their traditional powders and as long as nobody will be selling strong extracts made with these varieties (or any other kava plants) the risk will remain minimal. So note two things:

1. It's been recognised that there are "undrinkable" kava varieties and that they could be more risky than "drinkable" kava varieties. This was one of the several potential risks associated with this market (in addition to aerial parts, mold, etc). So it's nothing new.
2. The government assumed that most drinkers of traditional kava are aware of the difference and hence will know what to avoid. In order to protect random people from consuming inferior kava in a concentrated form, the government banned strong extracts, pastes, tinctures and banned adding kava to food. Again, it's not illegal to make such products for one's own consumption or even to import tudei leaves. It's just illegal to sell leaves or tinctures as food to the general public.

The government of Vanuatu banned exports of "undrinkable" kava cultivars (now known as "tudei"/"two day") already more than a decade ago to protect the reputation of the entire industry. But the idea that some kava cultivars are "undrinkable" is also known elsewhere. E.g. a few years ago someone tried importing tudei to Samoa and selling it as local kava. It was a big scandal and the government was issuing warnings against "fake kava" (this is the term used for those imports) and how it was making people sick ("puking, nausea, etc).

The government of NZ was right to note that traditional drinkers will naturally reject "undrinkable kava products". The problem is that more and more drinkers are either not traditional drinkers or people who have lost connection to traditional practices. A random Chinese woman living in Chicago has no idea what "drinkable" kava should taste or feel like. She will simply assume all kava is kava, some might be strong, some might be weak, but it's all the same. A bit like with coffee. I don't think the government should be telling her what to consume, but I think it's absolutely amazing that the online community of kava drinkers has spontaneously created forums, guidelines and even associations aimed at spreading this traditional knowledge and informing the public about what's fairly obvious to all traditional consumers. This makes the whole market better, not worse. Yes, some vendors might lose their business, but many more will grow as more and more people will be getting good kava experience.
 

Edward

Aluballin' in the UK
Kava Vendor
Oh no, not this again ;-) . I'm with @HeadHodge on this, label it properly and give people the choice. People can make their own minds up about whether they should be drinking only noble or whether tudei is ok too. Like probably all of us I've had a hangover from noble kava, doesn't mean it's not noble just that I probably had too much. If I get a hangover from the same kava twice I just don't drink it again. That way I'm whittling down my list of favourite kavas to only include the cleanest ones or at least the kavas that consistently treat me the best. As time goes by and as batches change I may have to review this but for now I know what I want to drink. That's a big step forward from where I was 6 months ago though. I don't think some vendors openly selling tudei will end the kava world but adulteration has the chance to mess things up for all of us and that should be eliminated and discouraged as far as possible. I know with the whole supply chain thing it's not always possible but if you're sensitive to tudei and your fav kava starts giving you bad effects then switch to something else that treats you better. The active use of your trade dollars will push this thing along in the right direction, if you only regularly buy good kavas that treat you well and everyone does the same then sooner or later somewhere down the supply chain there will be a guy left holding a load of adulterated kava that he can't sell because no one will buy it from him.
 

TheKavaSociety

New Zealand
Kava Vendor
@Kavasseur have you read the paper I sent you a couple of months ago? It provides a solid explanation why tudei was likely the key factor that contributed to the adverse reactions and subsequent damage to kava's reputation worldwide.

I recommend this paper to anyone who would like to understand what appears to be the current scientific consensus on this matter.
 

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verticity

I'm interested in things
...A random Chinese woman living in Chicago has no idea what "drinkable" kava should taste or feel like....
That's easy: it should taste like the traditional Chinese medicine that her Mum gave her as a child. (My wife is 2nd generation Chinese-American and her mother gave her Chinese medicine as a kid instead of taking her to the doctor, because her mother didn't trust Western doctors. Apparently it tastes pretty bad..)
 

Groggy

Kava aficionado
Admin
You bring up a point that I think some people confuse about the issue and it's related to why I always suggest finding higher DHM noble/medicinal kavas if you think you want Tudei. The confusion is in the term or experience of "Tudei-like effects". People seem to think that if they have experienced Tudei like effects from a noble kava, then it must mean your body has been affected equally as such. As far as we know, this should not be the presumption.

Since Tudei apologists typically value their personal opinion over that of the leading scientist and pharmaceutical chemists in the field, I will only propose this next part as a hypothetical:

Let's just say, hypothetically, that FK-B has definitively been proven to be harmful if consumed regularly via apoptosis and/or whatever other mechanism. Since tudei kava has several times the concentration of FK-B than noble kava, it would stand to reason that tudei kava could be several times more harmful. Now, as you and I have personally experienced, we've both consumed tudei kava and also consumed some noble kava that we've considered to have an equivalent effect as tudei. So if the same effect can and has been achieved with certain noble kavas, why would one insist on the ingestion of tudei to get the same psychoactive effects, in this scenario where we know the buzz is the same in either choice but the damage is increased in only one.

Back to reality, what I'm trying to say is, the perceived psychoactive effects aren't necessarily an indicator that equally benign or malignant metabolic processes are at work inside you.
Based on the hypothetical example you present, I agree with you, however it is a hypothesis. If I drink a noble kava that gives me a hangover similar to drinking a tudei kava, I will equate it as a similar experience. I don't consume tudei kavas regularly or noble kavas that have that similar effect, in fact, I drank Hanakapi'ai & Nangol only once to determine that it was not my preferred chemotype. Similarly, I seldom consume tudei kava, 97% of the kava I drink is noble.
What I said is I believe in the option to drink tudei kava, assuming it is labeled accordingly.
 

CactusKava

Phoenix, AZ
Kava Vendor
That's easy: it should taste like the traditional Chinese medicine that her Mum gave her as a child. (My wife is 2nd generation Chinese-American and her mother gave her Chinese medicine as a kid instead of taking her to the doctor, because her mother didn't trust Western doctors. Apparently it tastes pretty bad..)
I once went to Chinatown in San Francisco, and they made me a tea to apparently help me with all sorts of things. I took two sips and had to throw the rest away. Considering i drink kava on a nearly daily basis, that's saying something :)
 
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