It's not just hypothetical. Read the paper I posted
A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy
- Thread starter Kojo Douglas
- Start date
GussWest
Kava Enthusiast
I have spent all day on this thread and the linked megathread.
This is an important discussion for the kava community. I understand why it gets heated.
It seems the science has dropped off considerably. Funding is the most likely explanation. Has Dr. Lebot moved on to other subjects? It seems a concentrated effort on the HPTLC and acetonic tests should provide more answers.
I want to know more about the high-analgesia nobles @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava. Now we're getting somewhere!
This is an important discussion for the kava community. I understand why it gets heated.
It seems the science has dropped off considerably. Funding is the most likely explanation. Has Dr. Lebot moved on to other subjects? It seems a concentrated effort on the HPTLC and acetonic tests should provide more answers.
I want to know more about the high-analgesia nobles @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava. Now we're getting somewhere!
I think I understand the point you are trying to make, however the article you posted deals more with ethanol extraction vs water and what led up to the ban in Europe on a pharmaceutical level, I find this article to be more informative to your case and point.
http://kavasociety.nz/kava-purity-and-nobility/4587940789 (presumably this is your website)http://kavasociety.nz/kava-purity-and-nobility/4587940789
I never suggested that this dilemma or controversy started with Deleted User.
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While I see your point and what you guys are saying makes perfect sense, it is still a matter of choice, or it should be. That was what I was trying to convey. As @Edward said on the last page. We all know the risks, it SHOULD remain a personal choice. I don't think it's fair to chastise a vendor here or anywhere, that CLEARLY labels his kava accordingly.
Now to be extra clear on my position, a vendor that intentionally mixes tudei with noble kava and tries to pass it off as noble, is another story. Those are the people that need to be banned or face consequences of such blatant disregard for the consumer.
Now to be extra clear on my position, a vendor that intentionally mixes tudei with noble kava and tries to pass it off as noble, is another story. Those are the people that need to be banned or face consequences of such blatant disregard for the consumer.
Palmetto
Thank God!
Back to the original topic:
Truth in advertising. If you claim it is noble, then let it be noble. If you test flavokawains, you could argue against an orange acetone test, but otherwise, you have to go with the current delimiting designation of tudei vs. noble. But as someone who used to do cancer research, but now does cancer therapy, flavokawains are not all bad. They do kill kill/inhibit cancer. Just to be safe, if you want the healthiest liver, drink Hawaiian cultivars and take no drugs, but if you suspect you may have cancer, and aren't on chemo, then use tudei +/- other non noble cultivars.
As I read over and over on this forum: each kava has its own purpose. Honestly, I had a lot of Chris' Mo'i today, and that stuff was made as an art. Boy was I annoyed when my daughter threw out a large mug of it. I almost yelled at her, but I thought, it's more important to keep a good relationship with her than to be mad about a few dollars worth of anything.
Truth in advertising. If you claim it is noble, then let it be noble. If you test flavokawains, you could argue against an orange acetone test, but otherwise, you have to go with the current delimiting designation of tudei vs. noble. But as someone who used to do cancer research, but now does cancer therapy, flavokawains are not all bad. They do kill kill/inhibit cancer. Just to be safe, if you want the healthiest liver, drink Hawaiian cultivars and take no drugs, but if you suspect you may have cancer, and aren't on chemo, then use tudei +/- other non noble cultivars.
As I read over and over on this forum: each kava has its own purpose. Honestly, I had a lot of Chris' Mo'i today, and that stuff was made as an art. Boy was I annoyed when my daughter threw out a large mug of it. I almost yelled at her, but I thought, it's more important to keep a good relationship with her than to be mad about a few dollars worth of anything.
I'm saying theres no point of metric of the KF opinion unless you read every post and every member posts their opinion. I posted mine, but there should be a poll too is what I'm saying.
Adulteration is the biggest problem as I see it. Tudei is grown for whatever reason, it's around and out there. Given the science available right now most of us choose not to drink it. Some people want to drink it and I think that's fine. The problem is when vendors start selling a blend as noble and unwary newbies in the developed countries where drug/food control is tight buy it, drink it, get ill and then report it. That's what could cause problems for the kava world as we know it. As I said in my previous post I believe that as time goes on if the majority of people self select, even if it's by trial and error if necessary, the right kavas for them then ultimately the market for tudei and/or adulterated/suspect kavas will dwindle to nothing and all growers who want to establish and build a long term viable business rather than a fly by night quick buck operation will be forced to only grow noble kava in order to be able to sell their product.
verticity
I'm interested in things
@EQ You may post your own poll.... Also this question was polled in the Kava Census.
"Do you consume tudei kava? (37 responses)" - 91.9% say No
Although it would be interesting to see a more detailed breakdown of people's opinions about the tudei issue, since the census is more about behavior than opinions.
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Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
So we have polls, the results of a single scientist, a symbolic government ban that was deployed to save an industry, a vendor who has complete control over what he plants (please don't take this personally, I love your Kava and applaud your passion and hard work), and a few papers that condemn poisonous Kava concoctions.
It doesn't add up.
It doesn't add up.
chandra
Kava Enthusiast
I've never drank tudei kava but my personal opinion is that we should have the choice to drink it if we want to. I do have some concerns about the way that would really work, though. It seems it would be more likely to get mixed or tudei kava without knowing that's what it was. The majority of people will prefer noble kava, so if a grower has extra tudei, it would be tempting to add it or mislabel it. My other concern is another health scare because supposedly noble kavas were actually tudei. That would be bad for everyone involved. I do believe tudei has a place as a medicinal or special occasion kava, just as it has been used traditionally to the best of my knowledge. It's really completely unfair to ban tudei because it may cause liver issues while allowing things like Tylenol and alcohol to be perfectly acceptable. I would much rather see all noble kava than a ban on kava as a knee jerk reaction because it didn't mix well with someone's alcohol or tylenol and hurt their liver. So I guess I see it as "freedom of choice" vs. "protecting the name and public opinion of kava" In a perfect world we would have complete honesty from all growers and vendors, informed consumers, and a government that didn't try to act like our mother. Unfortunately our world is far from perfect, which means our freedom to choose or kava's name are likely to suffer.
D
Deleted User01
I'm not a fan of Tudei because there are so many really good options available and I understand the Islanders only used it ceremonial and sparingly. By biggest beef was with the vendors who were selling Kava "spiked" with tudei and not listing it as part of the ingredients. If being "dishonest" is the only way they can make a living then good riddance. If @Kavasseur or any other members want to knowingly drink tudei for medicinal, ceremonially, or any other purpose; then go for it. Free Country!
I would also add that Chris at @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava does grow Tudei as part of his huge "Kava Collection". He is a Kava historian and a Kava farmer. Like many of us, he adheres to the tradition the Islanders started thousands of years ago of avoiding Tudei except on religious occasions. I certainly don't fault Chris for adhering to the traditions set forth by the original Islanders since he is both a historian and a traditionalist.
I have no comment on the banning of Tudei because many countries have already banned kava. So be careful what you wish for ..... Perhaps your point (@Kavasseur) is that Tudei has been demonized and you are probably correct. If you surmised that this was a marketing move to show everyone that Noble Kava was safe, you might also be right. Tudei, sure ain't as bad as "hard drugs" or even alcohol but I still see no reason to use it. If you want to give Tudei a "full pardon" and let it live the rest of its life without persecution then let me written and let it be done.
P.S. Chris wrote an article one time about the Tudei Kavas, ISA and Iwi. Iwi clocked in at a whopping 29% of Kavalactones. Isa at only 1.72%. The Hawaiians stay away from Iwi and I believe it is because the side effects are undesireable. ISA is a very weak sister so I'm not even sure why anyone would mess with it. But yes, some Hawaiians do seek it. The Tudeis are very piney smelling and tasting, maybe it's like a piney IPA to them. Who knows.
I would also add that Chris at @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava does grow Tudei as part of his huge "Kava Collection". He is a Kava historian and a Kava farmer. Like many of us, he adheres to the tradition the Islanders started thousands of years ago of avoiding Tudei except on religious occasions. I certainly don't fault Chris for adhering to the traditions set forth by the original Islanders since he is both a historian and a traditionalist.
I have no comment on the banning of Tudei because many countries have already banned kava. So be careful what you wish for ..... Perhaps your point (@Kavasseur) is that Tudei has been demonized and you are probably correct. If you surmised that this was a marketing move to show everyone that Noble Kava was safe, you might also be right. Tudei, sure ain't as bad as "hard drugs" or even alcohol but I still see no reason to use it. If you want to give Tudei a "full pardon" and let it live the rest of its life without persecution then let me written and let it be done.
P.S. Chris wrote an article one time about the Tudei Kavas, ISA and Iwi. Iwi clocked in at a whopping 29% of Kavalactones. Isa at only 1.72%. The Hawaiians stay away from Iwi and I believe it is because the side effects are undesireable. ISA is a very weak sister so I'm not even sure why anyone would mess with it. But yes, some Hawaiians do seek it. The Tudeis are very piney smelling and tasting, maybe it's like a piney IPA to them. Who knows.
verticity
I'm interested in things
Dr. Schmidt's paper has 2 co-authors. So make that 3 scientists. You should probably include Dr. Lebot as well, since as far as I know he concurs with Dr. Schmidt's results. So 4 scientists.
Kojo Douglas
The Kavasseur
I have nothing but the utmost respect for Chris and Gourmet Hawaiian Kava. You can quote me on that any day of the week.
verticity
I'm interested in things
Chris does grow Isa, but only for research, and as an ornamental plant; he doesn't sell it for human consumption, although if anyone needs a sample as a reference for acetone testing, he might send you some, if you promise not to drink it...
My understanding was that Iwi is almost like P. wichmannii, wild kava, and practically undrinkable..
verticity
I'm interested in things
I don't know
Kava Enthusiast
I just want it all properly labeled so we can make educated decisions. I think that is what we should be working towards. If they are mislabeled I want a way to know that like easy ways to self-test and then we can push back on those who openly lie about their kavas nobility. No one should be "accidentaly" labeling their kavas noble.
Surfer808
Newbie
It's my understanding that tudei kava (Isa&Iwi) is not a kava that it enjoyed daily. It was used for ceremonial and funeral purposes.
There is actually over 8 scientists that are on this boat that I know personally and have worked with many times and yes Dr Lebot is still working with kava and this problem with Tudei. He has already established a standard for 2 different tests to determine if kava is Noble or Tudei. Heck I remember when Dr. Lebot was going to school over here in Hawaii, that was a long time ago and I have been involved with the science of kava as well as collecting and growing kava for an even longer time. I have provided Noble Hawaiian kava root to many top name herbal companies, they all knew the difference between adulterated kava and pure Noble kava that is why my kava became so popular with them. This fight for the world to have the kava that has been used for thousands of yeas safely is still being fought by people like me and the kava scientists, to me the elders that went before us and have tested by trial and error for many many years as to what kava is good for us to drink, that is what I am going with along with good science. So it has always been 100% pure Noble for me. Aloha.
Chris