A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

[Alia]

There is actually over 8 scientists that are on this boat that I know personally and have worked with many times and yes Dr Lebot is still working with kava and this problem with Tudei. He has already established a standard for 2 different tests to determine if kava is Noble or Tudei. Heck I remember when Dr. Lebot was going to school over here in Hawaii, that was a long time ago and I have been involved with the science of kava as well as collecting and growing kava for an even longer time. I have provided Noble Hawaiian kava root to many top name herbal companies, they all knew the difference between adulterated kava and pure Noble kava that is why my kava became so popular with them. This fight for the world to have the kava that has been used for thousands of yeas safely is still being fought by people like me and the kava scientists, to me the elders that went before us and have tested by trial and error for many many years as to what kava is good for us to drink, that is what I am going with along with good science. So it has always been 100% pure Noble for me. Aloha.

Chris

I concur with this and can add that when I first met Vincent Lebot around 1992 we were collecting and distributing 'awa cultvars at, and to, an Ethnobotanical Garden in Kona, the discussion we had then was partly about the reason he had brought Isa and Iwi here to Hawaii, mainly for DNA testing while doing his post-doc work at UH, Manoa Campus. Even then he did not recommend actually drinking beverage from these cultivars! The ancient Polynesians, Melanesians, and Micronesians who took kava to an art-form were not always the noble folks some of their ancestors tout them to be, but some key aspects of their culture remain quite true today, like the specific cultivars of 'awa they daily consumed.

 

[Kalm with Kava]

The Noble vs Tudei discussion is hugely important and should be focused on scientific studies, user experiences, cultural traditions, and historical evidence of consumption from the people who grow it and have consumed it for thousands of years. The consensus through these past discussions has always been truth in advertising. I don’t know anyone has ever stated Tudei or blends using Tudei cultivars should not be sold, only labeled as such. These cultivars have been used for medicinal purposes for thousands of years and have certain uses but consumers not knowing the differences should be educated enough on what the repercussions could be before assuming they are just standard kava.

To call the debate and education that has resulted from this work a “Witch Hunt” is completely opposite of the intent and resulting progress that has been made. Before True Kava began looking into the inconsistencies, you could buy one bag of kava and feel great but the next bag you bought, feel completely awful. It was like Russian Roulette with a product that you can easily throw $20-50 down the drain if you are sensitive to the effects of Tudei not to mention having to feel like crap for a day or two. To simply say “let’s let these vendors put whatever they want together and just drink it” is unacceptable. This is something we all put in our bodies and testing with transparency is key. It is much more likely to raise flags with the FDA by having multiple adverse effects being reported of people becoming ill than educating consumers that there are 2 distinctly different plants of kava.

I personally believe the recent growing popularity of kava is due to this clear differentiation and clean up of the market. Who knows how many people were buying Tudei heavy blends years ago, getting sick, and telling everyone they knew not to drink kava? Whatever vendors have left the marketplace cannot be due to KavaForum’s discussion on the topic. What’s more likely is the almighty dollar speaking and consumers not wanting to drink inconsistent blends. No website has ever been banned from selling Tudei, if there was a demand for it, these vendors should be doing more business by making it boutique offering.

True Kava offers a service free of charge to vendors and consumers simply to know what they are drinking. It’s completely up to them what to sell or consume. Let’s not forget Deleted User also tests for chlorophyll content to know if you are getting leaves/peeling/stems in your kava. Another factor that was likely in the adverse effects from the late 90s/early 2000s. Again, it is a simply a service to better the industry. Anyone with the knowledge and money can go out and set up their own testing for the industry (and I think we need more!). Why on earth wouldn’t you want this? These scientists and Deleted User are working crazy hard to ensure education and transparency right at a time that kava sales are surpassing the point when we started having problems 15 years ago. As with any industry, there are people who will take short cuts to make a quick buck and there is going to be crap trying to be sold with possibly the same results as back then. It is far easier for vendors to buy anything suppliers are willing to throw together, most often mixed with Tudei. There's a reason it's really hard to get 100% Noble kava and why Vanuatu exports Tudei to Fiji, because they don't want to drink it. If nothing else, this has to say something about the debate.

 

[Deleted User01]

@Kavasseur, Tudei was probably banned to show the world that the rest of the Kava is safe. So maybe Tudei was the sacrificial Lamb so that the entire industry could be legitimatized. I still say it was a very minor sacrifice when you look at the potency of all the other noble kavas. Then there are the health concerns. Perhaps you are not convinced that Tudei is less healthy than Noble. Even so, for sure Tudei is more likely to cause nausea and to what end? I see this thread as an attempt to possibly Un-Demonize Tudei but drinking Tudei still doesn't make sense unless you are just damn curious. It's like I'm sitting here with a bag of Micronized Hanakapi (I got your Tudei) Ai', Nene, and Moi' and I'm saying, "Tudei?? Who needs it but have at it if you want." I just googled ISA and found that Hawaiian Kava center no longer sells it but Kule Farm does. Perhaps we should ask the actual vendors what they think of all this.
P.S. I just wanted to add that I do agree with the consensus that people should be able to buy any type of kava they want as long as it is properly labeled as such. The labeling has been the fly in the ointment in the past and makes you wonder, "what are they hiding?". I do not agree that a vendor should be able to sell Kava adulterated with Tudie and claim it is Noble. I would imagine that all Kava consumers would agree on this point.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

On the one hand we've got virtually all scientists studying kava; numerous Pacific governments and the vast majority of both traditional and contemporary kava users. They are all motivated by different considerations ranging from protecting kava's good rep to simply having greater accountability and reliability in the industry. On the other hand we have @Kavasseur and perhaps a few other people who want.. what exactly? I am not sure. Who disagree with the available research (on what basis?)? Who like tudei and cannot find it as easily as they could a few years ago? If the latter, then many of us here can put them in touch with those who grow and export tudei. Or is it about something else?

I am just confused. @Kavasseur do you really think the situation 2-3 years ago was better than today?
I remember purchasing a big bag of "noble" kava from one of the big vendors a couple of years ago. It made me physically ill for 2 days, gave me a terrible diarrhea, flu-like symptoms and weird lethargy that lasted for up to 2 days. A few other people have reported getting similar effects. When I complained about it here, the vendor came to say that "yea, this product is extra strong! I love it!". I just flushed the whole bag down the drain. It was later revealed that it was very heavily spiked with tudei or wild kava. The vendor never apologised to me for sending me a product that made me ill and that was extremely different to what was put on the label. I had been drinking kava for a while and I knew this was simply one terrible experience. But I am wondering what new kava users thought about that "adventure". I cannot imagine anyone buying more kava after experiencing that utter rubbish.
Is this the kind of world @Kavassuer thinks is great for kava and kava drinkers? Should such business practices be protected or promoted?

Just like everyone here I don't mind people drinking tudei. I might be inclined to support special labeling (with warnings) on organic extracts of tudei (or even tudei itself), but the key point is that I believe in honest advertising and accountability. Before kava testing, @Deleted User etc we had no way of determining the former or pushing for the latter.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

Are you implying that many vendors have gone out of business because they could no longer sell their tudei labelled as noble? Well, if that's the case then is it really a bad thing? Or are you implying that some "honest tudei vendors" went out of business because nobody wanted their tudei? Well, again, if that's what customers wanted..

The only two known vendors that have decided to stop selling kava in the recent months are Paradise Kava and GKE. I thought the former had shut down because Adil went to India or something? And the latter got tired of all the crappy European regulations?

 

[Deleted User01]

I know it sounds like @Kavasseur is on the side of Tudei but I really think he wanted to start up the conversation again and get all all the data on the table again. Last years discussion forced all of our vendors to do a better job of labeling their kava. That made us happy and that's why we don't talk about it anymore. In my mind, the problem was resolved when the vendors toed the line or risked being exposed by True Kava test results. @Henry, your story is a perfect example of what can happen with bad labeling and the reason that something had to be done back when.

 

[chandra]

I do agree that tudei kava has been demonized, but it kept noble kava safe. If we have to sacrifice tudei because some people simply don't have enough intelligence or self restraint it is worth it to keep kava here. I really think the demonization of tudei (deserved or not) was what saved kava from the government stepping in and banning it or putting unnecessary requirements on it. Sacrifice is a part of life. Right now I'm drinking garlic, hot sauce, and vegetable juice to kill my tooth infection. It's a sacrifice to drink it, but well worth the results. As far as safety goes, I would trust the traditions. Occassional use seems to be ok, but daily or frequent use isn't. The problem is most people either won't understand or respect this tradition.

 

[Sam Handwich]

All of this conversation has got me thinking, I really owe @Deleted User and this forum a big thank you. I posted earlier that I have never consumed any Tudei, I have never really thought to thank those responsible for this. It is because of the discussion and directions provided here and the work of the True Kava group that I am able to make such a statement. Thank you!

 

[HeadHodge]

All of this conversation has got me thinking, I really owe @Deleted User and this forum a big thank you. I posted earlier that I have never consumed any Tudei, I have never really thought to thank those responsible for this. It is because of the discussion and directions provided here and the work of the True Kava group that I am able to make such a statement. Thank you!

We'll do anything here for a Samwich.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I'm gonna go slightly off-topic here...

It annoys me greatly that were I to start a kava business, I would never be able to get True Kava certified regardless of the quality of the kava I sold. To be considered among the top kava vendors (at least in terms of quality), I need to either emigrate to a first world country, or find a US partner. That a Fijian, ni-Vanuatu, Tongan, or Samoan cannot be TK certified is unfortunate. I hope @Deleted User makes the TK certification process more transparent.

Vendor x is vocal about their support of the "noble kava movement". They obviously care about the quality of their kava. But they aren't certified. Why not? Have they never applied for certification? Did they apply for certification and fail due to process issues, or did their kava test positive for tudei?

We need a certification system. But we need it to function efficiently. It's all well and good to make life harder for "bad" vendors, but a system that makes it harder for "good" vendors to enter the field is less than ideal.

EDIT: On re-reading this, I regret the tone of my message. No disrespect intended towards @Deleted User personally, whose enormous contributions to the kava community I am very grateful for.
EDIT 2: Re-reading this again a few hours later, I'm embarrassed I wrote it the way I did. I've edited it even further to remove the nastiness.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

I'm gonna go slightly off-topic here...

It annoys me greatly that were I to start a kava business, I would never be able to get True Kava certified regardless of the quality of the kava I sold. To be considered among the top kava vendors (at least in terms of quality), I need to either emigrate to a first world country, or find a US partner. That a Fijian, ni-Vanuatu, Tongan, or Samoan cannot be TK certified is ridiculous. @Deleted User needs to do something about his certification process to make it more transparent.

Vendor x is vocal about their support of the "noble kava movement". They obviously care about the quality of their kava. But they aren't certified. Why not? Have they never applied for certification? Did they apply for certification and fail due to process issues, or did their kava test positive for tudei?

We need a certification system. But we need it to function efficiently. It's all well and good to make life harder for "bad" vendors, but a system that makes it harder for "good" vendors to enter the field isn't very good at all. TK should start charging for their services, hire staff, and grow into something more than a hobby project. Or else sell the operation to someone who will.

EDIT: On re-reading this, I regret the tone of my message. No disrespect intended towards @Deleted User personally, whose enormous contributions to the kava community I am very grateful for.

I understand these concerns, but obviously it's hard for Garry to vouch for big wholelers sending their stuff out from the islands while getting their root from hundreds of different sources every day. It's just much easier to work with those who receive larger shipments from time to time and can clearly identify and test each batch.

At the same time I think that Garry would be happy to provide info and guidance to anyone who was serious about setting up a similar certification project elsewhere. It would be amazing if Fiji could have its own True Kava chapter or a similar project. Perhaps you know some local NGOs or scientifically-minded kava enthusiasts who might be keen to explore the possibilities of setting up a Pacific, regional certification body that could even collaborate with TK?

 

[CactusKava]

There's so much in this thread, I'm just going to respond to everyone without bothering to quote.

1. @Kavasseur , when I first started researching kava, I bought Koniak as my first root, because you mentioned how great it was on your blog. It ruined me, and I didn't try another kava until a few months later when I decided to give another vendor/variety a try (thank goodness I did). It's this experience that led me down the path of only selling noble kava. Ninety percent of the folks on this board have decided to not drink tudei, and most of the active members here know far more than the average Joe who decides to buy some root. I sell noble kava for the newbies and veterans alike -- because I was in their shoes.

2. Garry over at TrueKava has greatly helped the community, and I'm a bit saddened at the tone of disrespect about his work. He's not in it for the money. He doesn't even accept kava from vendors aside from 1/4 cup samples. I can't imagine how many people he's helped by guiding them towards noble kava. He's propelled this community, and the kava community as a whole into something totally different than where we were a few years ago.

3. I can't speak for Garry, but I can tell you that it takes me quite a while to get sample COAs back from his lab. I sent a new kava cultivar (It's going to rock your socks straight off your feet) over to TK a few weeks back and have no idea when it'll be tested. I'm waiting in that long line, because the last thing I want to do is sell anyone untested root. If you buy my root, it's going to be tested by Garry, guaranteed; regardless of how long it takes to get it done.

4. There have been plenty of non-TK vendors that have been accepted by the community, like Luna, Big, Kavafied, etc etc. TK guarantees noble root, but that doesn't mean you can't be successful without TK.

5. The industry in the US needs to shun tudei, because the more negative attention that's drawn towards kava, the more likely something bad legally will happen. Two months ago I got a new sample from the islands, and tried out my usual amount with a friend. It wrecked my insides that night and the next day. Tudei makes you feel like crap, plain and simple. It's not rocket science, and it's not purely anecdotal. Tudei sucks.

6. Many are saying they are fine with tudei being sold, but that it must be labeled as such. I disagree, and it all comes down to my first point. We're trying to help people not feel terrible effects from tudei, and I don't think most people will do a few hours worth of research to decide whether they want to buy $30 worth of tudei or noble kava. They're going to hear things like "Medicinal", "not for newcomers", and "strong", and then proceed to buy it -- like I did.

TL;DR: Tudei is garbage, and only a select handful of people actually want to drink it. We need to really get past these conversations. They're getting old.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

There's so much in this thread, I'm just going to respond to everyone without bothering to quote.

1. @Kavasseur They're going to hear things like "Medicinal", "not for newcomers", and "strong", and then proceed to buy it -- like I did.

Yea, I still remember how one of the big vendors used to advertise their tudei as "kava for real connoiseurs" and another one labelled their tudei as "truly elite kava". Both claimed that tudei was "Not recommended for those new to kava due to extreme potency!" implying that it was simply a stronger version of their noble(ish) root. This was ostensibly done to warn newbies, but everyone knew that it worked in the opposite way. If one doesn't know that tudei used be called "undrinkable kava" or "fake kava" and that it's never consumed for recreational purposes by traditional users due to its dramatically higher potential for causing adverse reactions and hangovers, then these "warnings" about "extra potency" or "elite nature of this kava" sound very appealing. Especially in the context of all the info about Reverse Tolerance etc.

 

[CactusKava]

Anyone interested in getting the software, please PM me your email address.
@CactusKava
@CactusKava
@CactusKava
Are you still hosting the software publicly?

Here's the link:
http://studies.cactuskava.com/

I was just looking at the logs and I'm seeing some weird things going on with the server. I'm upgrading a few things on it right now, so hopefully it'll be stable when it comes back up in 15 minutes or so.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I'm gonna go slightly off-topic here...
It annoys me greatly that were I to start a kava business, I would never be able to get True Kava certified regardless of the quality of the kava I sold. To be considered among the top kava vendors (at least in terms of quality), I need to either emigrate to a first world country, or find a US partner. That a Fijian, ni-Vanuatu, Tongan, or Samoan cannot be TK certified is unfortunate.

I would love for you to elaborate and tell me more of why you think this way. Why would you not be able to get TK certified? I am confused too when you said regardless of the quality of your kava. TK labs is all for good quality kava so why not yours if it is good? Why can't you do all of this from Fiji? Why would you have to find a US partner? I ask these questions because I do not think that it is actually the way you portray it to be. Thanks and aloha.

Chris

 

[kasa_balavu]

At the same time I think that Garry would be happy to provide info and guidance to anyone who was serious about setting up a similar certification project elsewhere. It would be amazing if Fiji could have its own True Kava chapter or a similar project.

We discussed something similar briefly a few months ago. If I'm honest, at the time I was (selfishly, I admit) put off by the fact I was asked to assist TK certify the kava of other vendors (checking on exporters), without being offered a path to certification for my own product.

I am no longer interested in developing a kava business, but unfortunately my present circumstances prevent me from getting involved in anything of that sort. Hopefully that will change in the future.

Perhaps you know some local NGOs or scientifically-minded kava enthusiasts who might be keen to explore the possibilities of setting up a Pacific, regional certification body that could even collaborate with TK?

I don't. Or at least nobody who doesn't also have "skin in the game".

The new Kava Bill will be enacted by Parliament within the next few months. The first draft of it is pretty spineless but they've taken submissions and hopefully the final Act will have teeth. Once that's done and a Kava Council formed, more interested parties will surface and we'll see where that takes us.

There have been plenty of non-TK vendors that have been accepted by the community, like Luna, Big, Kavafied, etc etc. TK guarantees noble root, but that doesn't mean you can't be successful without TK.

But why is that the case? If we as a community largely consider those vendors to be "noble", why haven't they been certified? Are they uninterested in certification, or have they not been able to meet the requirements? What are those requirements? Are they documented somewhere?

If we are to grow the noble kava "movement", then we need more certified vendors.

I would love for you to elaborate and tell me more of why you think this way. Why would you not be able to get TK certified? I am confused too when you said regardless of the quality of your kava. TK labs is all for good quality kava so why not yours if it is good? Why can't you do all of this from Fiji? Why would you have to find a US partner? I ask these questions because I do not think that it is actually the way you portray it to be. Thanks and aloha.

Chris

Hi Chris,
Because that's what I was told when I enquired. I can't think of a requirement that you in Hawaii or @Henry in Auckland can't meet, that I as a vendor in Fiji can't also meet. But that is what I was told. Which led me to believe it was more trust-driven than process-driven. Mr. Stoner has developed a relationship with you over the years and can therefore vouch for your product. Any other new entrant to the market doesn't have that. But then CactusKava was certified on arrival. What did Morgan do that so many other vendors haven't been able to, if indeed they tried at all?

The solution is really quite simple, and that is for TK Labs to document their process to make it easier for new vendors to get certified.

 

[Edward]

I'm gonna go slightly off-topic here...

It annoys me greatly that were I to start a kava business, I would never be able to get True Kava certified regardless of the quality of the kava I sold. To be considered among the top kava vendors (at least in terms of quality), I need to either emigrate to a first world country, or find a US partner. That a Fijian, ni-Vanuatu, Tongan, or Samoan cannot be TK certified is unfortunate. I hope @Deleted User makes the TK certification process more transparent.

Vendor x is vocal about their support of the "noble kava movement". They obviously care about the quality of their kava. But they aren't certified. Why not? Have they never applied for certification? Did they apply for certification and fail due to process issues, or did their kava test positive for tudei?

We need a certification system. But we need it to function efficiently. It's all well and good to make life harder for "bad" vendors, but a system that makes it harder for "good" vendors to enter the field is less than ideal.

EDIT: On re-reading this, I regret the tone of my message. No disrespect intended towards @Deleted User personally, whose enormous contributions to the kava community I am very grateful for.
EDIT 2: Re-reading this again a few hours later, I'm embarrassed I wrote it the way I did. I've edited it even further to remove the nastiness.

Before I say anything else I want to say I really respect the hard work that @Deleted User has done towards helping us all drink noble only kavas if that's what we choose to do. That said I can honestly say that I haven't looked at the TK website for months and months. The fact is that the majority of vendors who are selling good kava here are NOT certified by true kava. So, if you want to drink good noble kava and you only ever order from the vendors listed on the site you'd be down to a handful of vendors. Nice though their root is there is a whole world of other kavas out there and the funny thing is that the vast majority of it is noble.

Of the criteria I do use in coming to a decision about whether to buy a certain kava TK certification comes nowhere. I read what the vendors website says, I read reviews (all reviews not just le kavasseur), then I buy the ones I like the look of and drink them. If I were to get seriously ill not only would I not drink the kava again but I would be sure to let everyone know about it. Everyone else here would probably do the same and so in that way bad kavas and bad vendors are exposed. I'm not saying that every kava drinker who buys and drinks kava in every country in the world is a member of this forum but I'm guessing there are many non members who use this site for information too. I think because of this that kava is in some ways self regulating anyway.

I don't know how hard it would be for a new vendor from the islands to get certified or whether they would become easily established with kavaforums users but I know I would probably try their kava and judge for myself whether they were selling good kava or not. thekavaroots.com started up and as far as I know has no certification and yet their tongan reserve is my favourite kava ever. This is a bit of a wide answer to the quoted post but more specifically @kasa_balavu please, please do start a kava business and I look forward to trying and reviewing your kava

 

[kasa_balavu]

If I come across as being anti-TK in my earlier post, nothing could be further from the truth. On another kava forum I participate in, I push TK certified vendors aggressively. I promote CK, GHK, and KWK above even the only vendor that I can personally verify being 100% noble because they (Taki Mai) aren't TK certified. I've turned down bribes from other vendors more than once that came with requests to change my stance on this.

I 100% support TK Labs and their certified vendors. All I'm asking for is greater transparency.

 

[Edward]

If I come across as being anti-TK in my earlier post, nothing could be further from the truth. On another kava forum I participate in, I push TK certified vendors aggressively. I promote CK, GHK, and KWK above even the only vendor that I can personally verify being 100% noble because they (Taki Mai) aren't TK certified. I've turned down bribes from other vendors more than once that came with requests to change my stance on this.

I 100% support TK Labs and their certified vendors. All I'm asking for is greater transparency.

My post has less to do with TK and more to do with your assertion that the little guy can't get into selling kava from the islands. I think there is a place for anyone who can source and sell good quality noble kava no matter where they are.

 

[TheKavaSociety]

@kasa_balavu I understand your point, but let me explain how I see this situation. Please note that this is my personal perspective and I do not claim to be speaking on behalf of Garry or anyone else linked to TK.

When Garry started doing his testing there was no such thing as a separate TK project. It was all part of the forums. A concerned member who invested his time and money to test kava regularly consumed by other members of the forum while constatly consulting with other members and working with them together to develop testing standards etc. It was in a way a child of the forum. As the project was progressing Garry kept calling for help/assistance and kept encouraging people to join his efforts. But the idea wasn't to develop Garry's "business", but simply to advance the concept of a consumers' "watchdog". Or actually to force vendors to demand higher quality, to test their products, etc. At some point Garry (and many others) actually wanted the forum to become sort of fused together with True Kava project and to not only discuss kava, but also to monitor its quality and promote safe, responsible use. This idea was seen as too extreme by the forum's owner who wanted this platform to remain more fun or open, so to speak.
It was at this point that TK became more of a separate body, but still closely linked to all our discussions here. On the one hand TK started doing their own certificates, but on the other hand it kept spreading the simple message that vendors should consider testing all their batches and that they should aim to guarantee noble.

TK has never claimed to be the only authority on good kava, but it has presented a solid case for trusting the vendors that followed its guidelines and recommendations. Consumers started recognising the value of TK's process and more and more people became interested in getting "certified". At some point TK received requests from big wholesalers in places like Vanuatu. From what I understand, TK decided it had no means of ensuring that all the stuff that wholesalers in Vanuatu send to their retailers around the globe is 100% noble as they themselves admit that they source their kava from hundreds of small suppliers, so it chose not to try to certify them. This might be unfair, but not unreasonable. If you were to be a kava farmer who wanted to simply export his own product, then I think TK could have considered certifying these products. But if you were one of the many big traders who send hundreds of kgs of kava from hundreds of farms to hundreds of places around the globe and you were totally unknown to TK then it's arguably more difficult to be confident about vouching for your products. In any case, the point of TK is not to be the "monopoly" on kava standard, but to encourage testing, reliability and consistency. So I am sure that the vast majority of people who trust TK would also trust a vendor who would be keen to guarantee 100% purity, nobility (or money back) and who would test each batch of his/her kava. But the reality is that there are few such vendors. Some vendors might not be able to meet these requirements. Others seem to have a different business plan ( I will send you a PM about one such example that you might be familiar with).

Anyway, the TK was growing slowly, but more recently Garry has been forced to dedicate his attention to other, more pressing issues and priorities and hasn't been able to dedicate as much attention to TK testing or certifying new vendors. He has kept calling for assistance/encouraging people to do their own testing, but nobody seems to be interested/capable of helping him with this project. Those who might have the resources and incentive to advance the project recognize that they also often might be seen as having a conflict of interest, so they simply cannot get more involved.

That's my take on TK. I wish it had become an integral element of this forum with more members actively participating in this project and advancing the concept of a big "kava consumer watchdog". But obviously this platform's owner has a right to do anything he likes with his forum and I respect it (and remain grateful for his service to the big kava community).