A Call for a Truth and Reconciliation Discussion on the Noble vs. Tudei Controversy

[Kojo Douglas]

Honestly, can I get an answer to that question? How is it that people are still selling Kava with the TK certification if Deleted User hasn't been running tests for months? How is that no new vendors have been certified?

Do we really care about whether Kava is Tudei or Noble, or are we more interested in legitimizing certain actors? I just don't see the rational behind this system.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

re: 'SPIKING'

What else would you call it when a beverage has secretly been 'strengthened' by adding a certain ingredient unbeknownst to the consumer ?

Of course this is an appropriate and fair term to use.

 

[sɥɐʞɐs]

Honestly, can I get an answer to that question? How is it that people are still selling Kava with the TK certification if Deleted User hasn't been running tests for months? How is that no new vendors have been certified?

Do we really care about whether Kava is Tudei or Noble, or are we more interested in legitimizing certain actors? I just don't see the rational behind this system.

This might be the only point I agree with you on, TK is nearly pointless (currently), as it pertains to vendor certification, *if* people who want to and try to get certified can't get certified.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Hey, I never said that. If it looks like the argument is going in that direction then that's someone else's interpretation.

I did say "cartel," yes. Because that's what it looks like to me.

For example, if Deleted User has been out of the system for several months now then how are these vendors still TK certified? That doesn't make any sense. Are they still sitting on the same batches?

I just want to know how this works. Do you test your Kava once and get a lifetime TK license?

Or maybe people who are TK-only constituents are just drinking really old Kava?

 

[verticity]

The color chart cards, we need the color chart cards!
That would make it simple and fast to do. ...And also finding true tudei is hard to have as a control sample, so a 100 percent Tudei color chart card would work great.
We need Kava Forums Acetone Test Color Chart Cards. You know the transparent kind, that you can see through.

PM @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava . He can give you some Isa for testing. Or buy it from N@H.
The problem with the color cards, is that color is two dimensional. (Three dimensional, technically, but it can be reduced to two useful dimensions) Think of the "color pickers" in computer applications:

See http://www.labnol.org/home/hue-saturation-luminosity/20104/
The "hue" is the x-axis of the color square, and the saturation is the y-axis.
The problem with kava, is that for noble kava, the hue is pretty well defined. In the CIE color diagram it lies along a straight line. But the saturation is variable. Here's the part of the CIE color diagram that includes the acetone test colors:

Points along the green line are noble kavas. They have the same hue, but different saturation. So the problem with making a set of comparison cards is: what saturation should you pick for the "noble" on the card? And what saturation for the "tudei" color, and "adulterated" colors? You can only pick one of each.
What you really need is an inexpensive colorimeter that can measure the hue electronically.
I've been looking into making such a thing using colored LEDs and photodiodes.
Please stay tuned...it might be a while since I have an actual job, too...

 

[kasa_balavu]

Honestly, can I get an answer to that question?

This is an excellent question. Give it some serious thought and you'll have your answer.

Hint: Apply this question to the food you eat and the factories that produce them. There are hundreds of certification systems for all sorts of manufacturing and production systems. Organic certification, HACCP, BVQi, all the ISO manufacturing certs. Every food item commercially produced in the first world has gone through a system certified by one organisation or another.

How does it all work? How can the food and beverages you consume be safe to eat and drink if these certifying organizations only do an annual check (with the occasional unannounced inspection)?

You may not "see the rational behind this system"(sic), but it's how the food production system that keeps you and me fed works. If you still can't see it, let me know and I'll explain further.

How is that no new vendors have been certified?

Read the thread again. This has been answered both by @Henry and @Deleted User.

 

[Kojo Douglas]

Thanks for the condescending non-explanation, which I have understood and rejected.

I'm actually a farmer in Ghana, so I know a thing or two about how farms work in the developing world. If you are really proposing that Vanuatu has robust regulatory agencies like the FDA for Kava, then you are completely naïve.

Face it, TK is selling us stickers. Nothing but stickers.

 

[kasa_balavu]

This might be the only point I agree with you on, TK is nearly pointless (currently), as it pertains to vendor certification, *if* people who want to and try to get certified can't get certified.

This is essentially what I was saying in my first post in this thread. TK is awesome, but it will end up failing if TK doesn't put new vendors on a pathway to certification.

 

[Squanch72]

PM @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava . He can give you some Isa for testing. Or buy it from N@H.
The problem with the color cards, is that color is two dimensional. (Three dimensional, technically, but it can be reduced to two useful dimensions) Think of the "color pickers" in computer applications:

See http://www.labnol.org/home/hue-saturation-luminosity/20104/
The "hue" is the x-axis of the color square, and the saturation is the y-axis.
The problem with kava, is that for noble kava, the hue is pretty well defined. In the CIE color diagram it lies along a straight line. But the saturation is variable. Here's the part of the CIE color diagram that includes the acetone test colors:
View attachment 6706
Points along the green line are noble kavas. They have the same hue, but different saturation. So the problem with making a set of comparison cards is: what saturation should you pick for the "noble" on the card? And what saturation for the "tudei" color, and "adulterated" colors? You can only pick one of each.
What you really need is an inexpensive colorimeter that can measure the hue electronically.
I've been looking into making such a thing using colored LEDs and photodiodes.
Please stay tuned...it might be a while since I have an actual job, too...

Wow so Noble can still have a pretty orange-ish tint. That is where the acetone test gets tricky for me.

 

[Palmetto]

I think everyone can agree that tudei spiked kava mixed with nobles hurts the kava industry and is a danger in many ways. But I wouldn't consider properly labeled tudei to be a bad thing, but yes, it can be reasonably argued that the sale of tudei is somewhat of a risk for the sale of nobles, even if not as much as years ago.

But going back to what I said before, cancer patients have a legitimate use for tudei kavas, since flavokawains are highly tumoricidal. I plan to try a tudei spiked noble soon, but since borongoru is about as tudei like as I can stand, it will probably be a one time thing just to say I did it.

 

[Squanch72]

But looking at how close the yellow and orange color is on that chart. How the hell could you ever tell if it was spiked if has no tudie felt effects with just the naked eye?

 

[Deleted User01]

Well, for the record, I only drink TK certified kava. Ya know why? Cause I drink a ton of @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava Micronized Kava. I dare anyone to come up with Kava that is more noble than his. Unadulterated freshly harvested kava from farm to market. Nene is so noble that it was written that the Islanders would use it on a "fretful child". Now that's pretty safe stuff in my book and it has proven to be so. Zero side effects is the name of the game and Tudei can't say that.

I got an idea, if the so called "black listed" vendors have their kavas tested and proved to be noble, then we can publish the results here. If it turns out they are still selling adulterated kava with misleading labels, then we can burn them at the stake. Fair is fair. One more thing, if they say "Our Noble Kava has 25 percent Tudei in it", then we give them an H for Honesty and ya'all Tudei Loving Kavateers can buy it with both hands and with my blessing. But @Kavasseur, I hope you aren't implying that we welcome dishonest vendors with open arms. They gotta earn our respect and business. I don't care if they are TK compliant as long as they are not dishonest and their kava is labeled correctly.

 

[kasa_balavu]

Thanks for the condescending non-explanation

You deserve condescension if you ask a question not because you want an answer but because you're grabbing at straws for arguments to support your narrative (down with quality control, down with TK, down with the cartel).

which I have understood and rejected.

A guy I know said this about climate change science. Yes, I laughed at him too.
Simply saying you understand and reject something is no argument at all. What exactly do you understand and reject, and on what basis? Are you saying that there is a USDA/FDA/HACCP/BVQi agent at every factory in the USA monitoring each batch of food?

I'm actually a farmer in Ghana, so I know a thing or two about how farms work in the developing world. If you are really proposing that Vanuatu has robust regulatory agencies like the FDA for Kava, then you are completely naïve.

What are you on about?

It's apparent from your question that you don't know how certification systems work. When you pick up a packet of food at your local first-world supermarket with a HACCP or Organic sticker on it, this does not in any way mean that the food item the packet contains has been checked by the certifying authority. It is the manufacturer and not the product that is certified. The sticker just says that the certifying authority has a good-faith belief that the product in question has gone through a production system that meets some standards. You either trust the vendor and the certifying authority, or you don't.

The incentives line up to ensure that the certified vendors stay in line. Adam Smith's invisible hand takes care of it and ensures that @Deleted User can disappear for a few months without that affecting the quality of certified vendors.

 

[Deleted User01]

@Kavasseur, I gotta better idea. Non TK stickered vendors can post their kavas in their section on this forum. Name each Kava, and look us straight in the eye and tell whether it is spiked with Tudei or not. Tell us if it was tested if only with the inexpensive acetone test. Swear that you know that your kava is either Noble or spiked or you have no idea. What's so tough about that? Hey, if it is spiked, then use it as a marketing advantage. Be creative, some people like strong kava. But please, no whining. Just the facts Mame.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

It has become clear that @Kavasseur loves to create contention and problems, he does not read these posts as he keeps asking the same questions, he bounces back and forth, he likes tudei then he does not like it, then he likes it again, then he does not like it again. After reading all of this in this thread most of the participants have valid concerns and are happy with talking about these things in a civil way but even though @Kavasseur may not be actually "uncivil" he has been problematic and he does not see the truth for some things when it is right in front of his face, for example he says he has in laws and friends in Hawaii and he knows from all these people that the local Hawaiians love Isa but that is just "NOT " true, as I said and I guess he did not read it, I have interviewed ever kava bar in Hawaii and I know many more people, kava farmers and kava drinkers here in Hawaii than @Kavasseur does so he can not say that what I am telling hhim is just not true and he did say that.
I think that it is time for this to stop, we have a tudei mega thread and we do not need to do this all over again. This is the trouble making that @kavassuer likes to do. I guess since he can't find any tudei kava, this is how he gets his jollies. Come on Kavassuer just stop it all ready, as we say here in Hawaii "nuff already" You have been totally wrong in "Most" everything you have said and you have been attacking Deleted User and TK labs. We all see the point but is is clear that you do not or you do but still like to cause problems. "STOP" "NUFF ALREADY"!!!!!
There are better things to do, like drinking our favorite kava, you go drink your tudei and enjoy getting sick and I will drink my favorite kava and love it. Aloha to all.

Chris

 

[Edward]

PM @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava . He can give you some Isa for testing. Or buy it from N@H.

Uh oh, which of theirs is tudei? I just bought one of each...

@Kavasseur, I gotta better idea. Non TK stickered vendors can post their kavas in their section on this forum. Name each Kava, and look us straight in the eye and tell whether it is spiked with Tudei or not. Tell us if it was tested if only with the inexpensive acetone test. Swear that you know that your kava is either Noble or spiked or you have no idea. What's so tough about that? Hey, if it is spiked, then use it as a marketing advantage. Be creative, some people like strong kava. But please, no whining. Just the facts Mame.

I really don't think this is a problem, the review section here takes care of the nobility question quite nicely. If there is a vendor listed on the site that starts selling a tudei or adulterated kava without proper labelling they will be found out amazingly quickly.

 

[Squanch72]

In fairness at @Edward I think a small time vendor would have a hard time telling if it was mildly spiked and wasn't heavily spiked in the supply chain. Now maybe a vendor with deep pockets could afford the lab, but if they only work with small amount of root at a time I think an expensive lab or the acetone test would both fail them there.

 

[Edward]

In fairness at @Edward I think a small time vendor would have a hard time telling if it wasn't heavily spiked in the supply chain. Now maybe a vendor with deep pockets could afford lab, but if they only work with small amount of root at a time I think the acetone test would fail them there.

Yes, that's an issue I hadn't thought of. It's easier from the consumers perspective in some ways because as soon as there are a few reports of illness caused by a particular kava that kava and possibly even that vendor would struggle going forward. Presumably when you buy your kava you have to take the word of your supplier that it is noble? There are lots of good reviews for your kava so we can assume it is good kava but yes I can see the problem you are pointing out. Who knows what may happen with the next batch? Not wanting to put a dampener on your business of course, just exploring the issues.

 

[kasa_balavu]

I believe @Squanch72 only sells Fijian kava from Levuka Island. So long as his vendor believes he tests his kava and can detect tudei kava, he has nothing to worry about. It's the small vendors who source from Suva/Nadi in Fiji, or from Vanuatu who have a harder time because they're normally going through more than one layer of middlemen and are situated in markets where tudei exists.

 

[Kalm with Kava]

Honestly, can I get an answer to that question? How is it that people are still selling Kava with the TK certification if Deleted User hasn't been running tests for months? How is that no new vendors have been certified?

Last I heard, Garry had over 100 samples in back-log. He has repeatedly asked for help with his endeavor to no reply.

3. TK is not the only kava test lab on the planet. My methods are completely transparent and available to anyone who wants to use them.
5. TK is at a crossroads, and there is a major opportunity here for someone who cares about kava drinkers. Considering the interest here and the scores of inquiries from the site, now is the time to take TK to the next level. As vendors are aware, I expected at some point to convert to a "subscription" service, where vendors would pay a flat fee per month for unlimited testing. This would allow for two employees - a "promoter" and a lab tech.
Garry

1 man can only do so much. From my understanding, he would love to have many more vendors proudly serving noble kavas but many don't want to be burdened with having every shipment tested or waiting for analysis before letting the public consume them.

3. I can't speak for Garry, but I can tell you that it takes me quite a while to get sample COAs back from his lab. I sent a new kava cultivar (It's going to rock your socks straight off your feet) over to TK a few weeks back and have no idea when it'll be tested. I'm waiting in that long line, because the last thing I want to do is sell anyone untested root. If you buy my root, it's going to be tested by Garry, guaranteed; regardless of how long it takes to get it done.

As far as bullying and being "mobbed", I have only seen respectful answers to your questions/arguments with the following responses:

This is the definition of a witch hunt.

I'm not speaking for Judd here, by the way. I don't know about any of that. And I don't really care to hear about it.

A pseudo-federation that selectively chooses and endorses vendors who conform to their demands. Reminds me of the NFL. "Oh, you want Tudei in your lineup? We won't even endorse your Noble Kava." It's total market control, and as I've said above - the proof is in the pudding. It totally feels like a cartel. Until True Kava agrees that they'll accept Tudei as an option that any vendor can carry - along with certifiable Nobles - then I will refuse to support their Fab Four.

Want to be a Kava vendor? Want to get in on the action? Well, first you have to get your Kava tested by a completely illegitimate quality control board. Doesn't even sound legal to me.

That's one mighty soapbox you've got there.

Thanks for the condescending non-explanation, which I have understood and rejected.
Face it, TK is selling us stickers. Nothing but stickers.