Vendor Concerns

[SelfBiasResistor]

It is no use talking to you, it is a waste of my time. Your mind is made up, just like Kavasseur and Bula Kava House.

As usual, you won't address any customer concerns as they continue to stack up over time. That's why I gave up on you earlier in the year but we can't analyse the actions of some vendors and ignore the actions of others.

You've deceptively positioned your products as being the most potent in the industry with no testing to back it up. You advertised 20% KL kava multiple times, the last time which was only a few months ago. The only test data you could cite was done many years ago on a plant that had an extraordinarily high KL content. You didn't tell your customers that what they were getting was closer to 75% less KL than what you had listed.

You're among the least transparent vendors out there. You've always talk about living on a kava farm but when it was found out that you don't actually live on a farm, the story changed to having many small farms spread out on the island and of course they must be kept secret. Last summer when Matt went to visit you, I thought that issue would be put to rest when you showed him the farm, of course we know that didn't happen. You have posted some pics but the metadata tags show they are from 4-5 years ago. Lets compare that to another vendor who is selling farm fresh kava. KT has posted pics and given us insight into the farm and life of his Kadavu farmer. KT also states that he buys from the biggest plantation in Fiji. Not only do we get to see pics of the farm but we got a complete virtual tour. His customers have insight into how the farm is run, the worker conditions, processing of the root, areas of future improvement, etc. No secrets.

It hasn't really been discussed much if at all on this forum but the craigslist post can't be ignored. You offered to pay "top dollar" with "no questions asked". Garry first claimed it was part of a conspiracy against you, then the truth came out and you claimed you were only trying to find out how much ISA was being grown in HI. Oddly you left the word ISA out of the ad. Now the excuse is that you had taken it upon yourself to find kava thiefs in HI. Unless you are working with law enforcement, I don't see that being realistic.

I would like to buy single cultivar Hawaiian kava but I need to have at least a little confidence that what I am getting is what I am paying for and is truly clean and safe. The lack of testing, honesty, willingness to address concerns, inconsistencies in the information you do provide.... it really isn't shaping up to be a vendor that I want to buy from or that I could recommend to anyone else.

 

[Edward]

This thread was split from another and perhaps a new split is in order.
Get a room, @SelfBiasResistor and @Gourmet Hawaiian Kava!

Maybe we should split the whole forum into two. One for people who want to talk about drinking and enjoying good kava, it's effects and fun things, events, merchandise, etc to do with kava and another for those who just want to bicker about shit.

 

[recentreturn]

Maybe we should split the whole forum into two. One for people who want to talk about drinking and enjoying good kava, it's effects and fun things, events, merchandise, etc to do with kava and another for those who just want to bicker about shit.

lol!

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

What an astonishing post, actually naming a vendor as "most involved in shady business practices and scandals". What you fail to include is that these alleged practices and scandals are basically unsubstantiated and largely ridiculous. What you also fail to mention is that complaints with AKA/ROH/NAH are not only alleged, they are documented.

You're saying that the deceptive marketing was not documented? The scandal with Deleted User01 was not substantiated? The fact he can't provide lab issued COAs to prove his claims? The fact he posted what sounds like a desperate ad on craigslist to get kava of any quality from whoever will sell it to him? The fact he can't provide real evidence of farm fresh kava the way other vendors can? I could go on but that excuse is getting old and is really quite pathetic. Like I said, I would like it if he could set everything straight and prove that he is providing the highest quality, most potent and safest products like he always says but anytime questions arise, he ignores it or comes up with explanations that are inconsistent with other known facts. Or brings up a video blogger, tries to blame another vendor, etc.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

You're saying that the deceptive marketing was not documented? The scandal with Larry was not substantiated? The fact he can't provide lab issued COAs to prove his claims? The fact he posted what sounds like a desperate ad on craigslist to get kava of any quality from whoever will sell it to him? The fact he can't provide real evidence of farm fresh kava the way other vendors can? I could go on but that excuse is getting old and is really quite pathetic. Like I said, I would like it if he could set everything straight and prove that he is providing the highest quality, most potent and safest products like he always says but anytime questions arise, he ignores it or comes up with explanations that are inconsistent with other known facts. Or brings up a video blogger, tries to blame another vendor, etc.

This will show how you do not know what your talking about and you do not have all the details. The craigslist add was an attempt at seeing how much Isa and even Hawaiian kava was out there. I only got a few calls from that add and all of them were selling Isa, they did not know if it was Hawaiian or not, I had to educate them. They also had only 1 or 2 kava plants to offer.
Kavasseur and you and Bula kava house believe that this add was for me to get more Hawaiian kava, to get Meth heads as kavasseur said, to go and steel kava and sell it to me so they can get there drugs. This is just not true. You want to know how to prove it? I challenge you or anyone else to place an add on craigslist to buy kava just like I did. You will find there is none, there will not be phone calls from a bunch of people selling a bunch of stolen kava. The fact you do not know is that here in Hawaii there is not any kava to be stolen anymore. That all ended in the 1990's. The only kava left in the wild is so far out and so hard to get to that people will not go through the effort because the effort is too great. An example would be the 'Awa in Waimanu valley. It takes a few days hike just to get to it.
There is not kava close by in the wild, there is no kava farms but just a few and people live there and watch the farms. There are not big farms here except mine, Puuala farms, Maui Medicinal and Puu O Hoku ranch. So tell me how in the world would I be able to sustain my business on kava that is supposedly stolen because of that ad?
So now prove me wrong, place the add get the people to call you with all this tons of kava they want to steal and then sell to you. It does not exist and it will not happen. Try it. I did and I found out that I was right, there are people out there with kava, mostly Isa. Also if I mentioned I was looking for Isa, they don't know what it is, they only know it as kava. So go and place the add and prove me wrong. I know you can't.
I will not try to explain anything else to you because like I said you do not have all the facts and even when I tell you, you don't believe me.
It amazes me that you and Bula Kava House and Kavasseur can be so misinformed and so clueless as to what is really going on.

 

[recentreturn]

Other vendors? Who? I can think of only one, he's just got a few pictures, and none of that kava is ready for harvest. We're also lacking geo coordinates/aerial photos/unbiased witnesses/sworn statements from visitors etc etc for that farm too, so maybe there's some standard here I don't comprehend...

Did it occur to you that the vendor he had in mind might be a TK vendor?

 

[kastom_lif]

As for that "other" vendor, I am certain there is a bunch of farming happening on ʻEua.

I wish y'all'd stop busting his balls. Shake side to side, or use the saran wrap trick

 

[Bula Kava House]

This will show how you do not know what your talking about and you do not have all the details. The craigslist add was an attempt at seeing how much Isa and even Hawaiian kava was out there. I only got a few calls from that add and all of them were selling Isa, they did not know if it was Hawaiian or not, I had to educate them. They also had only 1 or 2 kava plants to offer.
Kavasseur and you and Bula kava house believe that this add was for me to get more Hawaiian kava, to get Meth heads as kavasseur said, to go and steel kava and sell it to me so they can get there drugs. This is just not true. You want to know how to prove it? I challenge you or anyone else to place an add on craigslist to buy kava just like I did. You will find there is none, there will not be phone calls from a bunch of people selling a bunch of stolen kava. The fact you do not know is that here in Hawaii there is not any kava to be stolen anymore. That all ended in the 1990's. The only kava left in the wild is so far out and so hard to get to that people will not go through the effort because the effort is too great. An example would be the 'Awa in Waimanu valley. It takes a few days hike just to get to it.
There is not kava close by in the wild, there is no kava farms but just a few and people live there and watch the farms. There are not big farms here except mine, Puuala farms, Maui Medicinal and Puu O Hoku ranch. So tell me how in the world would I be able to sustain my business on kava that is supposedly stolen because of that ad?
So now prove me wrong, place the add get the people to call you with all this tons of kava they want to steal and then sell to you. It does not exist and it will not happen. Try it. I did and I found out that I was right, there are people out there with kava, mostly Isa. Also if I mentioned I was looking for Isa, they don't know what it is, they only know it as kava. So go and place the add and prove me wrong. I know you can't.
I will not try to explain anything else to you because like I said you do not have all the facts and even when I tell you, you don't believe me.
It amazes me that you and Bula Kava House and Kavasseur can be so misinformed and so clueless as to what is really going on.

I really had no desire to get involved in this argument but since you keep bringing me in, I'll bite. I could talk about erroneous statements about ridiculously high kl percentages, you quoting results from labs that ceased operations in the 90s, you admitting then deleting a post explaining that your kava is rarely tested, the fact that you don't post current pictures of your "farm" and that nobody has seen it, the varying claims of anywhere from 60 to thousands of acres of kava farms, yet you often run out of stock, your prices are the highest in the industry and you're supplementing your product lineup with kava from Fiji and Vanuatu, you patting yourself on the back for being president of a Hawaiian kava organization that you failed to mention hasn't done any work in well over a decade, you lying about sales volume, but for now let's focus on the Craigslist article.

Your explanation is ridiculous. I know your fans will eat up any excuse you give, but for anybody else your claim is so bad it's actually funny. You were trying to figure out how much Isa people are growing? Why didn't you mention Isa in your ad? If I wanted to know how much of a particular kava is growing, I'm going to ask specifically for that kava. And what was the plan if somebody called with 10 five year old Nene plants? You were just going to tell them that you weren't actually interested, and it's a "covert op"? If you play this out, your explanation really makes little sense.

The one truth you presented is that there is very little kava growing in Hawaii. There are no big farms. On the other hand, there is some kava growing in peoples' private gardens. That's what your ad was going after most likely. And if you were being honest about it, I don't think anybody would fault you. Reselling kava is common. I do it. The problem is that you've sold people on this story of thousands of acres of potent, mature kava, grown only by you. Unfortunately the evidence doesn't support that. You have some plausible deniability here, but that's not going to work with everybody.

 

[Gourmet Hawaiian Kava]

I really had no desire to get involved in this argument but since you keep bringing me in, I'll bite. I could talk about erroneous statements about ridiculously high kl percentages, you quoting results from labs that ceased operations in the 90s, you admitting then deleting a post explaining that your kava is rarely tested, the fact that you don't post current pictures of your "farm" and that nobody has seen it, the varying claims of anywhere from 60 to thousands of acres of kava farms, yet you often run out of stock, your prices are the highest in the industry and you're supplementing your product lineup with kava from Fiji and Vanuatu, you patting yourself on the back for being president of a Hawaiian kava organization that you failed to mention hasn't done any work in well over a decade, you lying about sales volume, but for now let's focus on the Craigslist article.

Your explanation is ridiculous. I know your fans will eat up any excuse you give, but for anybody else your claim is so bad it's actually funny. You were trying to figure out how much Isa people are growing? Why didn't you mention Isa in your ad? If I wanted to know how much of a particular kava is growing, I'm going to ask specifically for that kava. And what was the plan if somebody called with 10 five year old Nene plants? You were just going to tell them that you weren't actually interested, and it's a "covert op"? If you play this out, your explanation really makes little sense.

The one truth you presented is that there is very little kava growing in Hawaii. There are no big farms. On the other hand, there is some kava growing in peoples' private gardens. That's what your ad was going after most likely. And if you were being honest about it, I don't think anybody would fault you. Reselling kava is common. I do it. The problem is that you've sold people on this story of thousands of acres of mature kava, grown only by you. Unfortunately the evidence doesn't support that. You have some plausible deniability here, but that's not going to work with everybody.

Wow, I give up, You will never get it.

 

[jim lahey]

Im glad i joined these forums, it allowed me to see the dark side of this industry pretty quicky and frankly quite clearly. Until Chris provides evidence for his claims i will never recommend buying his stuff. And now that kavasseur is retiring lets just say unbiased and the occasional Tudei review will still be making it on the interwebs.

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

"desperate ad on craigslist" Interesting adjective, but hardly one a reasonable person would assume on reading the ad. And certainly no mention of what he planned to do with said kava. Assuming the worst then adding implausible theories seems to be your guideline here, and in any case involving a vendor you don't like.

Exact quote (including spelling and punctuation) : "I am looking to buy mature kava plants, I will pay top dollar, I will by 1 plant or 100 plants or more, I buy truck loads if you harvest your own kava, bring it to me and I will pay cash on the spot, no checks no BS just cash for kava"

Maybe to you that says "I want to buy (but not actually buy) ISA". It doesn't sound like it to me.

"can't provide real evidence of farm fresh kava the way other vendors can": I'd say the steady flow of farm fresh Hawaiian kava shipped from GHK to their customers daily is pretty good evidence. Other vendors? Who? I can think of only one, he's just got a few pictures, and none of that kava is ready for harvest. We're also lacking geo coordinates/aerial photos/unbiased witnesses/sworn statements from visitors etc etc for that farm too, so maybe there's some standard here I don't comprehend...

Seems you are confused on the vendor that I used in my example.

Can you say the same for the vendors you so rabidly defend? For that matter, how many hours have you even spent discussing these accusations with the individual who originated them?

These are some bizarre questions. I don't think I "rabidly" defend any vendors. I give credit when I feel it's due. If something doesn't look right, I'll point it out. I've been talking up a deserving TK vendor a lot lately...

 

[Edward]

Im glad i joined these forums, it allowed me to see the dark side of this industry pretty quicky and frankly quite clearly. Until Chris provides evidence for his claims i will never recommend buying his stuff. And now that kavasseur is retiring lets just say unbiased and the occasional Tudei review will still be making it on the interwebs.

Tudei reviews coming soon . Whether you think I am unbiased or not is up to you but I do review a lot of non mainstream vendors.

Also while I'm not looking to support or stick up for any one particular vendor I really do love Hiwa and will continue to buy and drink it. I don't need to see proof of anything or even particularly get too upset about possible collusion in the kava market, dodgy craiglist ads, underhand marketing tactics, etc, etc, etc. The bottom line for me is if I like the kava enough I'll buy it no matter who it's from... Kona Kava order is on it's way. I think everyone should make that their main priority, if it's really good kava just buy it and drink it!

 

[jim lahey]

Tudei reviews coming soon . Whether you think I am unbiased or not is up to you but I do review a lot of non mainstream vendors.

Also while I'm not looking to support or stick up for any one particular vendor I really do love Hiwa and will continue to buy and drink it. I don't need to see proof of anything or even particularly get too upset about possible collusion in the kava market, dodgy craiglist ads, underhand marketing tactics, etc, etc, etc. The bottom line for me is if I like the kava enough I'll buy it no matter who it's from... Kona Kava order is on it's way. I think everyone should make that their main priority, if it's really good kava just buy it and drink it!

Hello Edward I do not think you're biased by any means but I do have to disagree I think that all vendors should be held accountable for their products I'm paying my good hard-earned money for it. I think that as a major kava company you would want to be as truthful as you can be, and part of telling the truth is having clear and factual information about your kava. I want to know when I'm drinking a noble and I want to know when I'm drinking a tudei. I want to know the kavaloctone % and evrey other bit of information they can give. I feel a lot of people use this as their buying guide

 

[jim lahey]

Tudei reviews coming soon . Whether you think I am unbiased or not is up to you but I do review a lot of non mainstream vendors.

Also while I'm not looking to support or stick up for any one particular vendor I really do love Hiwa and will continue to buy and drink it. I don't need to see proof of anything or even particularly get too upset about possible collusion in the kava market, dodgy craiglist ads, underhand marketing tactics, etc, etc, etc. The bottom line for me is if I like the kava enough I'll buy it no matter who it's from... Kona Kava order is on it's way. I think everyone should make that their main priority, if it's really good kava just buy it and drink it!

And we should care about collusion I do care about the farmers in Vanuatu, fiji, Ect.
I care that they make money and that all of this kava is fair trade. And I don't want to buy from a company with Shady business practices and neither should anyone else because you're consuming that you're putting that into your body. And I'm not naming any particular vendors but I'll provide an example.
If I was buying liquor offline and they told me it was 22% I waited a week and it arrived I tried it and it was a measly 3%, I'd not only be pissed but I would make sure other people knew that this company is crap.

 

[recentreturn]

But there is also a reason why trial-and-error came up with the idea of presuming innocence until guilt is proven; and why only very specific individual charges are examined carefully and one at a time with objective standards; and why specific bodies are appointed to adjudicate such accusations. The internet is weird because it puts everyone in the same room.
The fact of the matter is the vendors can give or withhold information at their own risk; its their decision. (Of course deceit would piss off the consumers; but then I would go back to the first half of my post here).

 

[Edward]

@jim lahey it's noble (no pun intended) to care about all that stuff but at the end of the day I find the kavas I like and I drink them. I like Hiwa as much as I like Kula as much as I like realkava Fijian. Who I buy it from and how their business is run is definitely secondary to me. I don't like Diageo (large global drinks brand) but I'll buy their products.

 

[Ricardo Piquant]

I appreciate true kava's intent, but I am skeptical of their operation. I don't believe each and every batch from every TK vendor gets tested. I do think the sticker concept is just a marketing gimmick. Having said that, I've never had a bad batch from any of these vendors. I've found Chris to be strangely secretive and nontransparent about his sourcing, to the point that it does raise questions (and believe me, I have heard all the arguments why he is so secretive). BUT, I think he truly appreciates the real core values of kava as demonstrated by years upon years of professional consultation, and I personally have found his kava to be very consistent over the years. I'd say the most consistent. He also supplies one of my all time favorites- the kumakua! I don't think he tests all his kava tho. There's more than nobility to be tested.

Another comment on Chris's kava... If you are a seasoned kava drinker who has tried many kavas from every single kava producing region, you know that each terroir gives a distinctive character that cannot be faked. Chris's kava clearly and unquestionably is from Hawaii (some people seem to question that). Also, his prices fluctuate with the global market to an extent because this IS a global market. That's basic economics. Just because his source is hawaiian doesn't mean the price will be isolated and unaffected from the spikes overseas. If his prices were too much lower than global market prices for kava, there'd be no kava to be had from him.

With regard to kava vendors, I think the best thing to do is try all of them once and give each an opportunity to show you why you should be a customer. While all TK vendors I've bought from have all been acceptable (and at times extraordinary), I've also had great kava from non TK vendors.

With regard to this thread, I'm not sure how Chris holding back a load of tudei for our benefit (and at his expense) got twisted into a conspiracy. Parsimony means the simplest explanation is usually the right one.

P.s. with regard to the now infamous CL ad, I think I don't buy all of Chris's explanation. But, I choose to look beyond that because he truly supplies world class kava and I don't think anybody can argue that really. I DO buy his argument that wild kava no longer really exists, because it is so valuable it's all been already taken. The cash on the table was grabbed. The few wild specimens left I understand are micro chipped.... Which BTW, was a program spearheaded by Chris!

My dealings with Chris have always been great. I appreciate the cultural and historical contexts he provides, his fast shipping, the quality, etc. I have my own skepticisms but the high grade kava keeps coming and I've been buying from him since November of 2016. I don't think he's running a house of cards because the great kava wouldn't be as consistent as a Swiss watch

All jmho fwiw

 

[SelfBiasResistor]

I can understand your feelings based on experience but just a couple of points here

I appreciate true kava's intent, but I am skeptical of their operation. I don't believe each and every batch from every TK vendor gets tested. I do think the sticker concept is just a marketing gimmick.

The sticker is a marketing gimmick at best. TK doesn't do much and for a while hasn't been doing any testing of kava. They can't provide lab issued COAs and the TK sticker only represents an acetone test (at best). I don't need a sticker to assure me that KWK is not going to source tudei but I would like to have a lab analysis if GHK is going to sell me Hawaiian kava grown in some random persons backyard (Ie. one of his gardens).

I have my own skepticisms but the high grade kava keeps coming and I've been buying from him since November of 2016. I don't think he's running a house of cards because the great kava wouldn't be as consistent as a Swiss watch

I would agree the kava had been consistent during that time. If you bought kava from him with harvest dates of late 2013-mid 2015, you would notice a big drop in quality and potency. I used to enjoy his kava in the past but the quality dropped substantially and when I questioned him, he would not talk about it. That's when I tried getting info on the "testing" done and found out the sticker really doesn't mean what people think it does.

Also while I'm not looking to support or stick up for any one particular vendor I really do love Hiwa and will continue to buy and drink it. I don't need to see proof of anything or even particularly get too upset about possible collusion in the kava market, dodgy craiglist ads, underhand marketing tactics, etc, etc, etc. The bottom line for me is if I like the kava enough I'll buy it no matter who it's from... Kona Kava order is on it's way. I think everyone should make that their main priority, if it's really good kava just buy it and drink it!

I agree with you for the most part. It would be good to get as many vendors on board with transparency and real safety testing but I will buy kava that's not tested if the vendor doesn't appear to be shady, is knowledgeable and doesn't get upset when someone questions him.